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Why does my praying offend people?

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Greshym_Shorkan
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20 Jan 2010, 2:01 pm

TheOddGoat wrote:
I'm not religious, but it seems whenever I mention that I ask God for some kind of guidance, or help doing the right thing, people take that like I asked God to drop a million dollars on my head.

You basically may as well have done so. Asking for something for nothing for no good reason is just begging and can be seen as very greedy if you have what you need to survive.

I just feel lost sometimes, and realize some things might be hopeless, and I realize that I'm not all-knowing, so it comforts me to reach for a higher power.

Which is effectively yourself, unless you can send psychic beams into the nether realm.

But if you ever admit to it, people straight up insult you for it. People are so ignorant and egocentric.

Isn't it pretty egocentric to assume that if there is a perfect being in the universe they'd help you in any way over, say, the Haiti earthquake victims?

It's not like my prayer condemns them for their lack of faith.

Yes it does, see above. It is indirectly saying you are worth more than anyone else and are so special that a god would consider helping you because of what you think rather than help anyone else.

Maybe anything that slightly reminds them of religion sends them on a tirade? Or they're so stupid they can't distinguish between religious and spiritual.

Quote:
spir⋅it⋅u⋅al
  /ˈspɪrɪtʃuəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [spir-i-choo-uhl]

–adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or consisting of spirit; incorporeal.
2. of or pertaining to the spirit or soul, as distinguished from the physical nature: a spiritual approach to life.
3. closely akin in interests, attitude, outlook, etc.: the professor's spiritual heir in linguistics.
4. of or pertaining to spirits or to spiritualists; supernatural or spiritualistic.
5. characterized by or suggesting predominance of the spirit; ethereal or delicately refined: She is more of a spiritual type than her rowdy brother.
6. of or pertaining to the spirit as the seat of the moral or religious nature.
7. of or pertaining to sacred things or matters; religious; devotional; sacred.
8. of or belonging to the church; ecclesiastical: lords spiritual and temporal.
9. of or relating to the mind or intellect.




Quote:
prayer
1  /prɛər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [prair]
–noun
1. a devout petition to God or an object of worship.
2. a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession.
3. the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.
4. a formula or sequence of words used in or appointed for praying: the Lord's Prayer.
5. prayers, a religious observance, either public or private, consisting wholly or mainly of prayer.
6. that which is prayed for.


Quote:
re⋅li⋅gious
  /rɪˈlɪdʒəs/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ri-lij-uhs]
–adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with religion: a religious holiday.
2. imbued with or exhibiting religion; pious; devout; godly: a religious man.
3. scrupulously faithful; conscientious: religious care.
4. pertaining to or connected with a monastic or religious order.
5. appropriate to religion or to sacred rites or observances.


Spirituality is religious.

Prayer is religious.


"Give me special privileges because I can cast this magic spell with this hand gesture because I'm special."

Quote:
egocentric

–adjective
1. having or regarding the self or the individual as the center of all things: an egocentric philosophy that ignores social causes.
2. having little or no regard for interests, beliefs, or attitudes other than one's own; self-centered: an egocentric person; egocentric demands upon the time and patience of others.

A prayer for yourself is probably the most ultimate selfishness conceivable in any way. Demanding the time and ability of the ultimate being through evocation.


I'm not demanding anything dude, and you're clearly ignorant, as you presume to know the limitations God. I almost knew even posting this here would draw out the idiots.



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20 Jan 2010, 2:10 pm

Greshym_Shorkan wrote:
I'm not demanding anything dude, and you're clearly ignorant, as you presume to know the limitations God. I almost knew even posting this here would draw out the idiots.

Is it ignorance to be unaware of the limitations of a being unpercievable by any means we, currently, possess?
If so, then it is presumptuous of you to claim you are aware of such a being's limitations.



Greshym_Shorkan
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20 Jan 2010, 2:18 pm

Lecks wrote:
Greshym_Shorkan wrote:
I'm not demanding anything dude, and you're clearly ignorant, as you presume to know the limitations God. I almost knew even posting this here would draw out the idiots.

Is it ignorance to be unaware of the limitations of a being unpercievable by any means we, currently, possess?
If so, then it is presumptuous of you to claim you are aware of such a being's limitations.


No, I said to Presume to know. Meaning, you think you know, and make assumptions based on that.



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20 Jan 2010, 2:36 pm

If you like to pretend like a supernatural being is your maiden, go ahead. If you want to do it in public go ahead. But do not expect people to like it. If you don't like people to show disapproval to stuff you do in public, stop doing them in public.

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Different things offend different types of people. In a group of evolutionists, try mentioning something related to the Intelligent Design movement. In a group of creationists, start throwing out random insults and make attempts at character assassination.

Oh god. You seem to live in a fantasy world. If creationists hated character assassination like that they would all have killed each other already...


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Last edited by Vexcalibur on 20 Jan 2010, 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Greshym_Shorkan
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20 Jan 2010, 2:37 pm

I have to add this... most of the people here who've attacked me are as bad as the religious extremists I've dealt with- they basically put words in your mouth and run with it, and their reasoning is totally moronic, made up of nothing but assumptions about your character and belief system.



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20 Jan 2010, 2:40 pm

Greshym_Shorkan wrote:
I have to add this... most of the people here who've attacked me are as bad as the religious extremists I've dealt with- they basically put words in your mouth and run with it, and their reasoning is totally moronic, made up of nothing but assumptions about your character and belief system.
Here's a surprise: you are not the center of the universe. People will disagree with you, constantly. Disagreeing with you is not an attack.


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Greshym_Shorkan
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20 Jan 2010, 3:10 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
If you like to pretend like a supernatural being is your maiden, go ahead. If you want to do it in public go ahead. But do not expect people to like it. If you don't like people to show disapproval to stuff you do in public, stop doing them in public.

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Different things offend different types of people. In a group of evolutionists, try mentioning something related to the Intelligent Design movement. In a group of creationists, start throwing out random insults and make attempts at character assassination.

Oh god. You seem to live in a fantasy world. If creationists hated character assassination like that they would all have killed each other already...


See, this is what I mean, people reading into stuff. I never said I did it in public. (I do, but you can't tell by looking at me.) I've mentioned in a conversation before that I pray, and somebody insulted me over it. He scoffed and goes like "that's a crutch for the weak." (Yes, that's an attack and an insult, by the way, no matter what you say.) He, like most people here, assume I'm not willing to take responsibility for my own actions, and instead ask for God's help.

What I'm saying is, why can't one do both? Are there rules saying that if you pray for yourself or someone else, or to make the right decision, that you can't take action on your own?

That's his opinion, that it's a crutch for the weak, but it was rude as Hell to say it like that. And I'll say it again, athiests can be every bit as stupid, rude, and hypocritical as the extremists.



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20 Jan 2010, 3:18 pm

Greshym_Shorkan wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
See, this is what I mean, people reading into stuff. I never said I did it in public. (I do, but you can't tell by looking at me.) I've mentioned in a conversation before that I pray, and somebody insulted me over it. He scoffed and goes like "that's a crutch for the weak." (Yes, that's an attack and an insult, by the way, no matter what you say.) He, like most people here, assume I'm not willing to take responsibility for my own actions, and instead ask for God's help.
So, you do it in public, and also admit it in public to do it. It is the same thing. If you don't like being judged by what you do or admit to do in public, stop doing/admitting it. If you care more about what you do than about what people think about you then go ahead and do it. I actually call that growing up.
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What I'm saying is, why can't one do both? Are there rules saying that if you pray for yourself or someone else, or to make the right decision, that you can't take action on your own?

No, there are no rules. But people are completely entitled to get annoyed by anything you do. Just as well as you are entitled to do it (as long as it isn't illegal, etc)... And just like you are entitled to feel insulted when they do.

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That's his opinion, that it's a crutch for the weak, but it was rude as Hell to say it like that. And I'll say it again, athiests can be every bit as stupid, rude, and hypocritical as the extremists.


You are actually being the hypocritical biggot in here. While your friend just made an opinion in a joke tone, you just completely insulted him by saying that he is stupid, rude and hypocritical. Why is it that you are supposed to have the right to show your belief without anybody attacking you while at the same time your friend should stay quiet and never state that he does not agree with your beliefs or else you'll consider him a stupid, hypocritical person?


BTW I am a spiritual person, but I consider your behavior to be the most offensive. (That crutch thing is actually funny...)


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Last edited by Vexcalibur on 20 Jan 2010, 3:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Greshym_Shorkan
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20 Jan 2010, 3:23 pm

Whatever floats your boat, dude.



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20 Jan 2010, 3:44 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:

BTW I am a spiritual person, but I consider your behavior to be the most offensive.


You know what, good. You sound like an ***. And no, I doubt you're a spiritual person.



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20 Jan 2010, 4:08 pm

Greshym_Shorkan wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:

BTW I am a spiritual person, but I consider your behavior to be the most offensive.


You know what, good. You sound like an ***. And no, I doubt you're a spiritual person.


Why is it that you complain about being attacked when almost every single post by you on this thread has called somebody ignorant, idiot, moronic, stupid, an ass, etc.

You complain about religious insult but you just insult people for commenting.

Not to mention that your first post says that you're not religious.



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20 Jan 2010, 6:08 pm

When I was a kid and somewhat religious, I would pray for what I wanted. As a teen I came to understand this as selfish, and I restricted my prayers to things such as safety, good health for myself and my family and friends.

At a certain point I stopped praying for myself and just restricted my prayers to the basic needs of my loved ones. If they loved me they'd be praying too and it would all balance out, right?

Once my world view expanded sufficiently(I am an autist after all), I saw many examples of people praying earnestly for benevolent things in opposition with the prayers of others for those same things(such as winning lottery tickets). I too saw people praying for mundane things that would not adversely affect their world(such as sports teams). Of course someone else was praying for the other team!

Taking it as a matter of faith that all were created equally, it made sense that nobody had their prayers answered even in the best of circumstances(not even the most innocent, and certainly not the worst!). I was then a deist, believing in an creator uninvolved with the world, with humanity.

From there it was a short mental hop to the idea that we can live our lives as if god didnt exist. Further, with my burgeoning understanding of science I came to see that there are empirical explanations for the universe.


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20 Jan 2010, 6:47 pm

Fuzzy wrote:
When I was a kid and somewhat religious, I would pray for what I wanted. As a teen I came to understand this as selfish, and I restricted my prayers to things such as safety, good health for myself and my family and friends.

At a certain point I stopped praying for myself and just restricted my prayers to the basic needs of my loved ones. If they loved me they'd be praying too and it would all balance out, right?

Once my world view expanded sufficiently(I am an autist after all), I saw many examples of people praying earnestly for benevolent things in opposition with the prayers of others for those same things(such as winning lottery tickets). I too saw people praying for mundane things that would not adversely affect their world(such as sports teams). Of course someone else was praying for the other team!

Taking it as a matter of faith that all were created equally, it made sense that nobody had their prayers answered even in the best of circumstances(not even the most innocent, and certainly not the worst!). I was then a deist, believing in an creator uninvolved with the world, with humanity.

From there it was a short mental hop to the idea that we can live our lives as if god didnt exist. Further, with my burgeoning understanding of science I came to see that there are empirical explanations for the universe.


Deist... somebody once said I must be a deist after I told them of my belief system. I'm more of an agnostic. For many years I never bothered praying for the same reasons you did, but I never put anyone down for their faith or insinuated what they did was useless... even when they proseletyzed(sp?). Prayer has benefited my well being greatly, but when certain people found out they made (what sounded to me) like childish, narrow-minded remarks. It's one thing if you think it's useless, because I admit I can't prove it does anything, but why twist it into a bad thing?



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20 Jan 2010, 7:28 pm

Greshym_Shorkan wrote:
It's one thing if you think it's useless, because I admit I can't prove it does anything, but why twist it into a bad thing?


To be sure, prayer likely doesnt consume many calories.

However there is arguably a fine line where one spends too much time in meditation and prayer. At that point it becomes A Bad Thing. If you found someone that prayed 15 hours per day, showered, ate and slept the rest, would you consider that bad?

The Reverend Martin Luther King said: "Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees it must put out of sight, and wish to know nothing but the word of god."

He is saying you should want to know no math, no science, disbelieve all that your eyes tell you. All you are to know is your faith. You are to have no recreation and no studies that is not worship, and no knowledge too. You read and write(presumably) only to express your faith.

I would guess that person that chided you draws the line miles away from MLK.


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20 Jan 2010, 7:43 pm

Greshym_Shorkan wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:

BTW I am a spiritual person, but I consider your behavior to be the most offensive.


You know what, good. You sound like an ***. And no, I doubt you're a spiritual person.
Exactly my point.


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20 Jan 2010, 11:01 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Greshym_Shorkan wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:

BTW I am a spiritual person, but I consider your behavior to be the most offensive.


You know what, good. You sound like an ***. And no, I doubt you're a spiritual person.
Exactly my point.


Look, Vex. I don't know how you see your posts, but in this thread, most of everything you've said has done nothing but belittle me, and has this snide tone. If I use an epithet or a four letter word to get my point across, does that suddenly make me so much worse than you?
I think I've been fairly reasonable and civil up until people started making false assumptions about my character. It seems like you especially don't even read my posts before you start typing. And it seems when I react with anything less than absolute courtesy, you start labeling me the bad guy. And I doubt you'll respond without some kind of subtle insult or extreme sarcasm, as you seem to enjoy instigating and fighting over a civil discussion.