Why is the U.S. at war?

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Orwell
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25 May 2010, 4:36 pm

Sand wrote:

Capitalism is a system of production and consumption. There are giant firms that benefit hugely from government contracts that produce very expensive goods that are consumed very rapidly in war. They have well paid lobbies in Washington that urge purchase and consumption of these goods and may influence government policy on war. The USA spends many times more for these goods than any other nation. That is a very strong contributing factor. It is by no means the only one but it is one very large one.

The problem with this popular narrative is that the present is the most peaceful time in all of human history. Furthermore, US defense spending as a percentage of GDP is at a relatively low compared to what it has been historically.

In other words, you are coming up with an elaborate explanation involving some nefarious plot to describe events that simply are not occurring.

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25 May 2010, 7:02 pm

jc6chan wrote:

MissConstrue wrote:

we've been fighting in other countries since the 1960's that had nothing to do with us..

You must have forgotten about 9/11. No country would take that crap and not respond. Even armies that are weak and cannot respond in a conventional manner will do so in one way or another (like firing rockets at civilians).

Sorry could you ellaborate?

I agree and I don't pretend to know how we could've better handled it. But if you ask me, bombing and firing rockets at civilians will only create more enemies don't you think? I mean if my family was killed because some idiot over from Texas convinced the U.S. that it was ok to bomb my country because of a few evildoers (a small portion of a group in relation to its citizens), you bet I'd be pissed. Not to mention the lack of evidence before launching the missiles. When I look at it from the big picture, it seems the U.S. did most of the terrorizing when you compare the damage done over there compared to here. Oh and we still don't have the guy supposedly responsible for the attack only his minions.

Anyway I'm not great at debating I just came here to learn from some of the members here. I'm never sure when I read something how I should respond or react since I'm not as educated as many of you. It's always great to read and learn other people's knowledge and point of views whether or not one agrees with the other. Helps me get a better perspective about these curious issues.

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Sand
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25 May 2010, 7:09 pm

Orwell wrote:

Sand wrote:

Amazing that you can relegate this to conspiracy theories when the facts are open and clear, If you are so totally happy with the state of the world, and i count you as one of the more perceptive individuals, mankind has a bleak future.

Awesomelyglorious
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25 May 2010, 7:44 pm

Sand wrote:

Name one point in time in which mankind has done much better than we are doing now.

psychohist
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25 May 2010, 8:07 pm

MissConstrue wrote:

I agree and I don't pretend to know how we could've better handled it. But if you ask me, bombing and firing rockets at civilians will only create more enemies don't you think?

I don't think the "firing rockets at civilians" referred to the U.S. Rather, I think it referred to groups that unlike the U.S., do not have the power to initiate a real war, but who still want to take some kind of action against a real grievance.

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25 May 2010, 8:11 pm

psychohist wrote:

MissConstrue wrote:

I agree and I don't pretend to know how we could've better handled it. But if you ask me, bombing and firing rockets at civilians will only create more enemies don't you think?

Ya thats what I meant. Groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, they can't find a better way to "cause Israel damage" and so they fire rockets at civilians. The irony is that everytime a war breaks out with Israel, Israel says that their bombing campaign will stop as soon as the rockets stop. Of course, its a matter of whether or not you trust that the other side will stop whatever they are doing if you stop.

Sand
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25 May 2010, 9:18 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Sand wrote:

Name one point in time in which mankind has done much better than we are doing now.

It's not the comparison to make.Tell me that the thousands of people dying daily from hunger, disease, brutality and simple neglect are irrelevant to our capabilities and our sensibilities.

NeantHumain
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25 May 2010, 9:24 pm

Empires conduct war.

Awesomelyglorious
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25 May 2010, 9:25 pm

Sand wrote:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Sand wrote:

Name one point in time in which mankind has done much better than we are doing now.

It's not the comparison to make.Tell me that the thousands of people dying daily from hunger, disease, brutality and simple neglect are irrelevant to our capabilities and our sensibilities.

I get the feeling that this is glass half-full vs glass half-empty to some extent. I mean, the "thousands dying daily from hunger, disease, brutality, and simple neglect" existed in earlier eras as well. The big difference is that now we can afford to allow some of these to no longer have all of these problems.

As well, I don't think your theory of war is really that credible either. I mean, are you going to say that the first Gulf War was just to sell weapons? That doesn't seem to be the case, and certainly your explanation of war still has to explain the relative peace we have today.

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25 May 2010, 9:35 pm

Fuzzy wrote:

Government projects generally throw onerous debts on the public shoulder. In this ruveyn is correct. However, when they succeed they pay off for society in the long term. First examples I can think of would be the Victorian reforms to sewage, the implementation of subways and the piping of fresh water. The aqueducts delivering water to New York city are prime examples, as are most of the bridges to Manhattan.

For modern examples I would cite urban renewal, road design(like that interstate highway thing) and of course programs like NASA. Probably the biggest monolithic project of the US government would be the Hoover Dam, the Panama Canal, the Alaska highway and the St Lawrence river seaway.

Yes, we are much better off with the sanitation, public health, roads, education, and aqueducts that we get from the government. As much as we all like to b***h about the evils of government, we would miss it if it disappeared.

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NeantHumain
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25 May 2010, 10:14 pm

[quote="psychohist"]the Iraq War, which primarily benefited Iraqis who were freed of Saddam Hussein./quote]
Let's not forget that it bolstered President George W. Bush's popularity, at least for a while, because he was a "wartime president," and we all had to "support our troops," whether we thought the war was outrageously wrong or not. Various defense contractors profited immensely from the war. I went to a Meetup.com event a few months ago, and many of the people there happened to be ex/current military, and many of the ex-military types worked in companies that designed weapons and aircraft for the DoD. They talked about the technology as just a cool new thing (wow, speed! stealth! aerodynamics! explosions!) and also a livelihood. They really didn't think about the cost of the war on taxpayers or the cost in human misery for soldiers and their families and then also the Iraqis themselves. I didn't go back to that Meetup.com group because I find such attitudes reprehensible. When people have a self-interest in continuing war, it warps their conscience.

Now that Barack Obama is president, it seems we've all forgotten about Iraq and how he campaigned mostly on getting us out of there.

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25 May 2010, 10:28 pm

NeantHumain wrote:

Various defense contractors profited immensely from the war. I went to a Meetup.com event a few months ago, and many of the people there happened to be ex/current military, and many of the ex-military types worked in companies that designed weapons and aircraft for the DoD. They talked about the technology as just a cool new thing (wow, speed! stealth! aerodynamics! explosions!) and also a livelihood. They really didn't think about the cost of the war on taxpayers or the cost in human misery for soldiers and their families and then also the Iraqis themselves. I didn't go back to that Meetup.com group because I find such attitudes reprehensible. When people have a self-interest in continuing war, it warps their conscience.

Many people working for defense contractors are focused very intently on the goal of saving lives, both of American troops and of the civilians in countries we currently occupy.

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Sand
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25 May 2010, 11:06 pm

Orwell wrote:

NeantHumain wrote:

Many people working for defense contractors are focused very intently on the goal of saving lives, both of American troops and of the civilians in countries we currently occupy.

I did not claim that the sole intent of the middle east conflicts was the profiteering of large defense businesses but to discount this as a large contributing factor reveals a particular blindness to reality. There is clear indication from both the inhabitants of the countries now under conflict and a very large number of American troops that the wars are a vicious useless action of very dubious motivation and the hundreds of thousands killed are certainly not a welcome effect by any of them.

ruveyn
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26 May 2010, 8:22 am

NeantHumain wrote:

Empires conduct war.

The U.S. conducted a war on Mexico long before it was an "empire".

ruveyn

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26 May 2010, 8:57 am

Manifest Destiny.

Hegemony

psychohist
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26 May 2010, 10:39 am

NeantHumain wrote:

I went to a Meetup.com event a few months ago, and many of the people there happened to be ex/current military, and many of the ex-military types worked in companies that designed weapons and aircraft for the DoD. They talked about the technology as just a cool new thing (wow, speed! stealth! aerodynamics! explosions!) and also a livelihood. They really didn't think about the cost of the war on taxpayers or the cost in human misery for soldiers and their families and then also the Iraqis themselves. I didn't go back to that Meetup.com group because I find such attitudes reprehensible. When people have a self-interest in continuing war, it warps their conscience.

Ironically, those contractors actually do the best in between wars, when the money can go to designing new weapons. During wars, the emphasis tends to be on producing weapons that have been designed, so the kind of thing you are describing here happens less. For example, the U.S. defense secretary delayed and cancelled several new weapons under development, including a new generation of Air Force fighter jet, towards the end of the Bush administration in order to keep enough money flowing to the efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Quote:

Now that Barack Obama is president, it seems we've all forgotten about Iraq and how he campaigned mostly on getting us out of there.

You must mean mostly on getting us into Afghanistan instead.

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