Is it anti-semetic....

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01 Jun 2010, 6:10 pm

It wouldn't be fair to kick people who had nothing to do with the oppression of Indians for them to lose their land, just like it wasn't fair for the Palestinians to lose their land because Zionists and some British religious loonies decided they wanted to fulfil some Biblical prophecy. I'm Jewish, and I think that there are legitimate criticisms of the way Israel was created and it's current policies - and don't think that it makes me in any way anti-Semitic.

sefer
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01 Jun 2010, 6:38 pm

Topcat16 wrote:

nope in no way is being anti zionism anti semetic, f**k all the bad steroetypes of jews come from zionism;

Read though these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

and still tell me that all their suffering came from Zionism. What an ignorant statement.

MissConstrue wrote:

makuranososhi wrote:

Let me ask this before answering - what are your thoughts on Native American nations/reservations?

M.

It's sad and upsetting to know they had to be forced off their land to make room for white man's unsavory power and lust for civilization in the form of greed. Now they are left with plots of land that were hardly viable to even live off of or the lands in which they were accustom to living on.

What do I think of modern Israel? I don't hate or have anything against the modern Israelites, in fact the same question could be asked of the modern Americans. What I'm against is nationalists who support a regime that had kicked off the people who lived there for thousands of years. I do not support in the way the land was taken.

How many Arabs who actually lived there as natives and are now considered Palestinians is disputed. A number of Arabs came from other Arab countries to pre-state Israel to find work that was brought there by the Jews in the early to mid 20th century. This migration is noted in old sources like Palestinian newspapers that were around before the state was created.

makuranososhi
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01 Jun 2010, 6:40 pm

Topcat16 wrote:

makuranososhi wrote:

Isn't it essentially the same issue? Those who settled modern Israel are considered descendants, one way or another, of a tribe that lived there in the past. Do you begrudge those Native Americans who fought for their land despite the claims of another people upon it? The complaints are the same, just two different sides of that issue... whose sense of entitlement wins out over another's.

M.

look at the timescale (thousand years and 200 yrs) mind

70 years hasn't made the atrocities of WWII any less deplorable; time doesn't heal all wounds, or forgive all trespasses. I find support of one and not the other slightly hypocritical if excused on that basis. Israel and the concept of a Jewish state was a no-win situation; no matter the solution offered, people would be displaced while others dissatisfied. One cannot condone the manner in which the US was founded and condemn the manner in which Israel was created. Both are the arbitrary taking of land from one people by another.

M.

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01 Jun 2010, 6:48 pm

Israel exists because the Israelis have fought for their right to exist as a sovereign nation.

For the Palestinians to win or at least get the Israelis out of the West Bank and Gaza and make a two-state solution feasible, they would be much better off using nonviolent (Ghandian) force to put the Israelis into situations in which they lose face or lose the moral high ground. A good example of such a situation would be a non-violent march on one of the many checkpoints that carve up the West Bank and make the lives of ordinary Palestinians suck. The march would force the soldiers guarding the checkpoints to open fire on unarmed civilians or stand down (LOSE-LOSE situation for the Israelis).

The aid flotilla raid was a disaster for the Israelis on many levels now they just have to contain the bad PR.

Topcat16
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02 Jun 2010, 6:46 am

so the israelis have rights of squatters? is that what we're saying, just because they can kill the inhabitants its legal???? like the americans then in that if u squat long enough the house is yours

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02 Jun 2010, 6:49 am

Topcat16 wrote:

so the israelis have rights of squatters? is that what we're saying, just because they can kill the inhabitants its legal???? like the americans then in that if u squat long enough the house is yours

They have the right of Possession. The same right that Americans have to the land Indian tribes used to hunt on. The unfortunate fact of life: Might makes Right. That is the way it is.

ruveyn

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02 Jun 2010, 12:33 pm

It could be azionist or antizionist, but aren't zionists a subgroup or partially overlapping group of semites? To call it anti-semitic would in that case be similar to calling the non-support of Real Beatis Football Club "anti-iberian".

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02 Jun 2010, 1:07 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Topcat16 wrote:

so the israelis have rights of squatters? is that what we're saying, just because they can kill the inhabitants its legal???? like the americans then in that if u squat long enough the house is yours

They have the right of Possession. The same right that Americans have to the land Indian tribes used to hunt on. The unfortunate fact of life: Might makes Right. That is the way it is.

ruveyn

So by that logic, if I take your home then I'm entitled to it. Good to know.

M.

Topcat16
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02 Jun 2010, 2:54 pm

makuranososhi wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Topcat16 wrote:

so the israelis have rights of squatters? is that what we're saying, just because they can kill the inhabitants its legal???? like the americans then in that if u squat long enough the house is yours

They have the right of Possession. The same right that Americans have to the land Indian tribes used to hunt on. The unfortunate fact of life: Might makes Right. That is the way it is.

ruveyn

So by that logic, if I take your home then I'm entitled to it. Good to know.

M.

thats why people stay in their porch with a shotgun to hand whilst the rest of the family holidays

psychohist
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02 Jun 2010, 5:43 pm

makuranososhi wrote:

One cannot condone the manner in which the US was founded and condemn the manner in which Israel was created. Both are the arbitrary taking of land from one people by another.

Native Americans have full rights of U.S. citizenship, along with whatever additional rights they may have because of their native American status:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Cit ... ct_of_1924

If Israel were to grant full rights of citizenship to palestinians living in the occupied territories, most of the criticism of Israel would cease.

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02 Jun 2010, 5:53 pm

psychohist wrote:

makuranososhi wrote:

One cannot condone the manner in which the US was founded and condemn the manner in which Israel was created. Both are the arbitrary taking of land from one people by another.

So would the State of Israel.

ruveyn

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02 Jun 2010, 5:53 pm

While I agree that Palestinian citizenship would help, your comments ignore a history of bloodshed, theft, deceit and outright murder in the US Native American experience that preceded that act, or the continued discrimination and even humiliation experienced by those subject to that act of 1924. I don't see that as a sign of doing something right; I see it as a wrong attempt to right a wrong.

M.

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02 Jun 2010, 6:03 pm

I detest the term "anti-semetic"

A "semite" is a person of a certain middle eastern language group.

Thus Palestinians are just as much "Semites" as Jews.

So if I say anything against Jews I am an "anti-semite"

If I am an "anti-semite" does this mean that I am against Palestinians and Arabs?

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02 Jun 2010, 8:58 pm

Too bad we couldn't just carpet bomb the whole middle east... It's the only way that area will ever see peace again.
Sadly though, if we did, and we wiped out islam and judeism that would leave christianity in power... and they're the worst one of them all, they're the ones (US + UK) that orchestrated this entire conflict in the first place by ripping the land away from nomadic farmers and giving it to the jews, knowing full well the endemic war that would ensue.

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02 Jun 2010, 9:36 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Topcat16 wrote:

so the israelis have rights of squatters? is that what we're saying, just because they can kill the inhabitants its legal???? like the americans then in that if u squat long enough the house is yours

They have the right of Possession. The same right that Americans have to the land Indian tribes used to hunt on. The unfortunate fact of life: Might makes Right. That is the way it is.

ruveyn

If might makes right then, of course, you accept that the Nazis were perfectly correct to attempt to wipe out all the Jews.

Malachi_Rothschild
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02 Jun 2010, 9:59 pm

No, it's not antisemitism. That would be ridiculous. On the other hand, there are some folks who conflate zionism and Judaism and condemn all Jews for the actions of the Israeli gov't. That is antisemitism.

To those who protest the term, I personally don't like the way it's used today either. Unfortunately words can't always be pieced apart by their roots. We park in driveways and drive on parkways. On the other hand, if you object to the language, start using the term anti-jewish or something similar and tell other people to do the same. Eventually if enough people do it the language will change. Arguing about the meaning of the word tends to splinter conversations away from what they're really about.

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