The Epistemology of the Divine

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epistemology: the study or a theory of the nature and grounds of knowledge especially with reference to its limits and validity [as related to "the sense of the divine"]

Theories abound, and I would guess many studies have been done in relation to various theories.

In my own case, no study or theory ever really got me anywhere. Rather ...

"When we drew near to Him He disclosed Himself to us!"

However, "the sense of the divine" is the object of this discussion, and this better relates to that:

"... deep down in every man, woman, and child, is the fundamental idea of God. It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there. For faith in a Power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself.
"We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend. Sometimes we had to search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us."

The sense of the divine is real in that it is caused by natural brain neurons firing.
Persinger's God Helmet should prove that.

But in no way is it a "real sense" that senses something real.
Because what it senses is purely illusion.

AG, i have to disagree, that sense is NOT a flaw.
it is a successful adaptation of the genes to create a temporal lobe that can by certain hormones be induced to give such a trust in one's own answer that you can "live by it"

It is the same way that we gain confidence in anything enough to act upon it.

If you had no confidence that the floor would not give out if you took a step, you would never take a step, and you'd starve to death on the spot you stood. Our mind needs a way to take that liklihood and give enough trust to it to allow us to act.
The process is going on every time you make any decisions.
However, over the 25 to 50,000 years since the great leap forward, mankind has developed many ways of exploiting this "advantage"... for their own advantage.
Religions benefit from this, because they know that singing together as a group release certain hormones in the brain that make you trust those around you, and your own feelings more than you would at other times. Mind you they don't necessarily know the science of it, just the effect.

Religions maintain themselves by manipulating this trick. They have many other techniques too that imbue trust ... both in your leaders and your "soul" which is perfect and made by god" though the body is an evil temptress. That feeling of truth comes from your soul, your essence, so... you trust it... because it's perfect, and you've been induced into trusting by manipulation.

But the fact remains.. the genetic mutation that changed our brains such was certainly a genetic advantage... If it weren't for memes and memeplexes such as religion, it's net advantage to the genes would be staggering.
As it is, with religions able to form because of it... It will be the death of humankind.

Then why are you just now mentioning it?



Not mine.



No need to do so.



No need to bring that into the question of the validity of "the sense of the divine".



Agreed.

That makes no sense!



Then please otherwise explain my permanent recovery from chronic alcoholism ... and please be warned: I have already heard and debunked it all before.

Well, right, and the criticism is that if there is no consistency between beliefs by others other than perhaps very vague things, there is no perceived mechanism, some of the conclusions arrived at contradict other supposed senses(or our reason) in that perhaps a God believed to exist through a spiritual encounter has teachings that are evil on some level, and there is no mechanism for this.

Now, is this an absolute disproof? No, but such problems do bring up concerns on whether this is actually knowledge or a mental defect, particularly given that there is a large background of mental defects, so this is not an instantiation of a new category.

oh, we got a christian "half-quoter" here eh?

Read half the statement so it's easier to disagree with it?

The mechanism that we sense the divine is a real set of neurons being activated.
We can even simulate the actions of these neurons by inducing them to fire.

What isn't real is what it senses.... they are real inputs, essentially thoughts that have been planted, manipulated, modified etc, until they come to you right when you're most vulnerable. When those thoughts go through your mind when certain other neurons are firing due to external (and perhaps some internal) conditions, you believe them, as though you've sensed the divine in the truth of the knowledge you've found.

How has it helped you through your alcoholism?
It didn't. You did it.
You... not some divine... not someone else... you did.
if you believe that your belief in a divine was the inspiration to get through it... then:
You still did it, because your brain had those neurons going off, just when you heard, or were told, or were thinking of that belief... And that's when you began to believe it stronger.
How does AA get you into that state? well, hearing revealing tales about others raises your trust level, knowing that you have less to lose by trusting. (thus raising oxytocin and similar hormone levels) as this goes on throughout the meeting people get higher and higher levels. And the prayer is said at the end to coincide with when the person is at the most trusting, literally drilling it home.
I doubt though that you really had a divine as an inspiration... because there was another side effect to the belief...
You not only were thinking of your divine when you were at this most trusting... you were thinking about how you COULD QUIT. And you began to trust in yourself being able to quit... after enough, you did trust it, and as a result you were able to do it, regardless of the divine... which was just a tag-along meme that came with self-trust

But each and every one of those actions was done by you... others may have offered what your brain needed to do it... but you alone succeeded in quitting.

Notice that there is nothing in all of that that requires the existence of a divine. Nothing needs a divine to be explained.

Unless you believe that there IS a divine which is ludicrous, you cannot claim that that which the sense observes or measures is real.

One thing at a time ...

"No consistency between beliefs (religions)" is the *reason* "the sense of the divine" is so crucial. During these kinds of conversations, I always like to suggest people *only* believe things that have actually been proved or revealed to them through personal experience ... and I have yet to find anything other than agreement and coherency after that.

"... if there is no consistency between beliefs ... there is no perceived mechanism ..."

Religion will never truly get anyone in touch with whatever might be beyond "the sense of the divine".

"... some of the conclusions arrived at contradict other supposed senses (or our reason) ..."

Again, religion will never resolve those issues for people.

"... such problems do bring up concerns on whether this is actually knowledge or a mental defect ..."

Take religion out of the picture and some attention to "the sense of the divine" can actually address those concerns.

You are full of s**t, and I say that with a friendly smile!

I well understand we are walking chemical reactions or whatever, but the "spark" or whatever it was that ignited my recovery was not fired off by me.

Yes, i'm afraid it was... And for you, I am truly sorry that you cannot take the deserved credit for such a great accomplishment.

I am not "just now" mentioning it, but rather it has been implicit to most things.


Right.... we've already talked about religion in the past, so I know you aren't so disconnected.


Sure there is, there is a difference between Krishna, Calvin's God, and Nirvana, and this difference is quite likely very relevant.

Even further, just removing part of the brain increases the feelings of transcendence. http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... -spiritual That does not seem normal for a sense, particularly given that this isn't a competing sense either, but rather the human ability to have self-perspective. This kind of alteration does suggest a cognitive flaw, sort of like a glitch.

Are you sufficiently delusional to believe you might actually be able to prove that?! And, why would you be afraid?! In any case, I can come up with at least several volumes of circumstantial evidence pointing at just the opposite.



I hardly believe my report truly grieves you, but there are plenty of other people who would be quite pleased to have you pat them on the back!

The sense of the divine is very real, and so is the divine proved to me. But if you wish, I will nevertheless at least listen to your mere theory about whatever else you might like me or anyone else to believe is actually true.

He can't prove it, but you can't really prove your case either, particularly given that your consciousness isn't the originator of all of your psychological reactions. As it stands, people have experienced all sorts of weirdnesses from beliefs they now consider absurd, and some atheists have even felt an amazing transformative relief from their own deconversions. I am not sure if anything is proved here.


Your feelings are real, but the issue is that this does not look like the matter of a real sense. God does not exist. I killed him, stridently. As it stands, the earlier citation on damage to the parts of the brain and transcendence seems quite relevant in this case, as it strongly suggests an internal source of divine feelings.

Maybe I am not getting this said clearly:

Considering "the sense of the divine" by listening to religious folks will only lead to further ignorance or confusion. One of the worst things I have seen happen to people over the years is exactly that: They "sense" a spiritual need or presence of some kind or whatever, then they look to religion for understanding or insight or further knowledge or direction ... and soon they become so lost in all the mess of religion that they can no longer sense where they had begun.

My "case" has already been proved and you have agreed to it:



The sense of the divine is real.

Right, but if this were really a sense, then why don't they just open their third eye and see the nonsense? It seems clear that each religion is an attempt to see the truth, but the truth is practically invisible, there is just a desire. That's likely why so many people "get religion", rather than actually pursue this sense.

Does that citation speculate as to who or what made that possible?