The illegals getting in my country and the dispute about it

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The United States as an open and welcoming country increases popularity. When we shut out people seeking opportunity, freedom and the American Dream it is a sucker punch to what the United States should be about.. A county that is a free society that should endeavor to enhance the freedoms of others. Creating easier methodologies to enter the country and more innovative approaches to offering them legitimate statuses here would be beneficial.

The individual must stay competitive, that means preparatory self-standards for higher education. Not the expectation to close out others selfishly to the world, just to have less concerted effort and less peer competition.

With a closed minded approach to immigration and pushing away new citizens we are closing the doors of the dreams of others. I think it's a bad idea to in anyway dis-promote the possibilities.

here's a general thing to throw out there:


what about the legal immigrants? what about everyone who comes here legitimately? i mean it's not like as if the boarders are completely closed from anyone enterting. i have a friend who came here legally from mexico and now is working a good job in new york. why would we concern ourselves with people who would want to come here illegally? all they're ever used for is slave work for slave wages. it benefits the rich to have illegal immigrants but no one else.

if people want to come here, they can immigrate legally.



is that such a far-fetched idea?

You must understand that a people in poverty desire betterment. They will try everything to get that. Here in America by comparision to some other places it is much better.

i understand it but there are legal means to enter the country and legal means to attain a green card and work in the country and possibly become a naturalized citizen.


and yes, i know there are exceptions...cubans seeking political asylum, for example, is an exception...and is a legal exception (if i'm not mistaken).

Nativism is also deeply within our heritage. Throughout history we have put limitations on our immigration. I would think that right now we actually have less limitations than we have had historically but I don't have the facts and figures on that. However, I don't really consider this a moral issue. It does not matter how "morally correct" the issue is considering differences in morality and stuff like that, what is important is the matter on how this will affect the country's economy and social structure.

There are legal ways for people to get into the country and it doesn't matter how much you want something if you get it illegally. However, there are some benefits to allowing more immigration as well.

It's survival, we should always open the hearts and minds to that universal truth of others. All are just human beings and have basic ideals for betterment. When poor and seeking money by working and having very few options that is what is sought. So why not embrace such a thing and promote furthered standards concerning the conditions of where they work and how much they get paid?

Why make it a crime to desire to survive if that was the only option to do? They don't want to sit around on there bums and twiddle their thumbs waiting of an America to come to them. So they come here to survive and make money to send back home in some cases, its simply survival and in some cases live or die.

That's true, and I would've thought that too, until about a year ago, when I became engaged to a Canadian citizen and, as I was from Wisconsin, we had to make the decision as to whether I should move up there or he should move down here, and we realized pretty quickly it'd be much, much easier and less expensive for me to move there. Not only is the process of immigrating to the U.S somewhat complicated (we could barely navigate the US Citizenship and Immigration Services website), it's expensive, costing thousands of dollars, and a lot of illegal immigrants don't have that kind of money-that's why they came here in the first place. When you and your family members are just barely surviving, there isn't a whole lot of time or incentive to try and tackle the immigration process-if they can even afford to, that is. I'm not saying it's a good thing-it is illegal, after all-but I sure as heck don't blame 'em. I'm willing to bet most of us would do the same thing if we were in their place. If we want to solve the problem of mass illegal immigration, one step would be to make it easier and cheaper to do it.


That's true, but by no means does that mean that they have it good or aren't being exploited. There was a canning factory not far from where I used to live, and not too far from it stood an old house and an old, run down building where illegal immigrants lived. Each one had a little tiny room with a toilet at the end, and I don't even think there was even any plumbing because it smelled like an outhouse. And about five years ago, when my family was in Phoenix, we drove through a neighborhood called Guadelupe where a lot of illegals lived, and it was basically like a shantytown. I don't know which was worse-that people still had to live like that here, or that it was probably better than what a lot of them had back in Mexico.

Everyone likes to sit back and debate this issue, or make policies regarding this issue, but it seems like barely anyone actually takes the time to talk to and listen and read about the real, live people who are most affected by it-the immigrants themselves as well as the people who lost their jobs or had to work for lower wages (and yeah, that makes some things cheaper, but what good does that do when you're not making that much money anyway, and a lot of that money goes towards costs that were once covered?) because their employers would rather pay workers little money and give them little benefits. The whole issue is basically about ordinary workers-immigrants as well as blue-collar American workers-getting screwed. I don't blame illegals for coming here, nor do I blame workers who are wary of mass immigration; I blame employers who pay their workers peanuts and give no benefits, and I blame NAFTA and the philosophies behind it, which, while accomplishing what it set out to accomplish like increasing Mexico's exports and GDP, caused the real wages of ordinary Mexicans (which were already low) to fall at least five percent, meaning they're doing more work for less money. Meanwhile, people with relatively comfortable lives continue to make their policies, do their research, and debate the finer points of free trade without having any idea of what its like to work in a maquiladora, or work a low paying job with few to no benefits. I don't need any reports or research or arguments to tell me whether the policies are working or not, that's all the evidence I need. As long as people are suffering like this, something is wrong. Sorry, I know I'm ranting here, I'm just going through a tough time financially, so these kinds of issues hit pretty close to home.

No, I personally saw how the US immigration centres and privatized prisons enslave these people in ways that violate international human rights. My friend spent 64 days in one until the Canadian government flew down to get him out. (Long story) In the meantime I learned first hand, and then read all those Amnesty International Reports that describe how desperate Latinos come over the border and work for slave wages to try to make their lives better. Except in the US they are stripped of all human rights and that is exactly what the agrictural industry needs in order to be profitable. Have you read the Amnesty International reports?

Here in Canada we don't have the big prison system for illegal immigrants. A W5 report showed that Canadian immigration officers have "quotas" for deporting people, and rather than deal with the truly criminal element these officers are sending back the deserving and hard working refugees instead because it is easier to fill quotas with those law abiding types rather than the criminal type refugee. So grannies and fishermen and other types who would be good for the economy get sent back while gang members get to stay. Nice, eh?


Even immigrants with permission to be here will create downward pressure on wages for citizens. Immigration is used to disrupt the gains made by workers who are already here. I think we should be allowed to talk about that issue in public without someone labelling us "racist" as often happens.

Boy did I find a great topic to debate. How's it going? I thought I would check in and see how things are going. 23 posts so far is great. Keep going this is great.

so when did our concern turn into the poor people from mexico who can't get a job because mexico's government sucks. if they have a problem with the government they should join up with the sandinistas and look to change their government.


and it's always been illegal to come here without a green card. the immigrants who'd come here through ellis island had to be quizzed, checked by a doctor, and basically thoroughly examined. if we had that set up in mexico and just let them come in that way, sure. but not unregulated. that's just stupid.

I don't worry about my job being stolen, there is no way someone who had no experience, couldn't speak english and was illegal could even find out about my job, much less take it.
I do worry about the cost of school, emergency medical, police and such to deal with the influx of non tax paying people. By and large people who come here illegally couldn't come here legally because they have a criminal record or some other disqualifying reason, that concerns me as well. I don't want more violent people then we already have here.
I worry about the fact they have an amazing number of children that continue on in the same path they have of not learning to be a functional addition to society. Birth control seems to be a non issue for them, and they have a much higher rate of teen pregnacy.
I don't like the fact that everywhere I look things are in Spanish. We are an English speaking nation, if you want to come here, you should learn to communicate. I would never dream of moving to france and expecting the people there to learn english for me, I would assume I needed to learn french.
I dislike the fact that my son is one of three english speaking children in his class, (his teacher speaks spanish as her first language) how much actual learning is he really getting there? Yet I pay about 23% of my income to taxes, I know most of those kids parents aren't ever going to be paying any, my taxes go to thier childrens education, and cause my child to get a sub par one. Even if I put him in private school, I am still through taxes paying for thier childrens education.
I worry about the fact that everyday I drive to work and have to be paraniod about uninsured drivers with BC plates causing an accident. I see at least one every day.
I worry about the huge jump in hispanic gangs in my area, most if not all are the children of illegals, they have actually made a special task force in my city to deal with the hispanic gangs alone, I live in a suburb of San Diego.
I have no problem with anyone of any race who comes here legally, raises their family and has a job, pays taxes and so forth like the rest of us. More power to them. I just don't like that millions of people are here as a drain on our economy and that it is even a question as to whether or not to let them stay. ILLEGAL is just that, illegal.

I am well aware of the distinction between moral and economic issues, hence all the quotation marks around the use of the words 'legal' and 'illegal'. They are not there for decoration.

The author brings morality into the fold by claiming that this is "my country", hence the basis for his attack is that he is making a moral claim that immigration is wrong because this is "his country", then goes on to build on this foundation by bringing in economic and social issues into the dispute. I have simply challenged the foundation of his argument, not made up one to challenge.

You yourself make a moral claim at the beginning of your statement, " Native Americans are not the legal ones", then go on saying how it is worthless to make them. The foundation of your argument rests on the fact that you are right in deciding who is 'legal' and who is not, which is a moral claim, yet you deny morality has anything to do with the issue.

I disagree that morality is not part of the issue, part of the immigration debate is who exactly we should let into this country and how, which is not decided strictly on the basis of economics. A big question is, "do we let foreign people seek a better way of life at the expense of the way of life for people already here?" which pits morality directly against economics. After all, America is all about the beacon of hope, the chance for a new life. Although economics may be a larger part of the issue than morality, it is not the whole issue.

If economics was the 'only' issue involved the debate would be much simpler, but it is not, hence the complications that arise.

Please do not take my responses personally, this is simply a debate, I just have a hard time figuring out your arguments and how you view things.

If "Japanese" didn't start with "Jap" our grandparents wouldn't call them Japs, but that doesn't mean you should call a Japanese person a Jap. Nor should you call anyone an illegal.

A good point, except that japanese is a nationality, not a legal status. If someone is a convicted felon, we call them ex-cons or felons, that is the same as calling someone who enters the country illegally, illegal. They are. It isn't a racial slur, anyone can be illegal.

The problem is with the policy, anyone wanting to enter the country should be able to. There is politics to closing the borders, mostly fear mongering concerning terrorism. People that are coming here to work are wanting to work and if they are doing all that just to find work then they are genuin.

Calling someone a criminal for seeking freedom and opportunity is a close minded approach to these people.

Something like a guest worker program that won't throw them in jail and provide good conditions to work.

People are terrorfied about possbilities.

Ok, to anandamine, I have not read the Amnesty International reports, do you know where I could find them. Also, the entire illegal immigrant slavery thing is not even a lawful system. We want them out of the country hence the fact they are called illegal. The fact that the current system does not work is why people want reform in one direction or another.

To johnathan79, I was trying to shift this away from a moral issue and look at the practical parts of it, I guess I was trying to ignore the moral issues by trying to put them as non issues, I was also very tired at that time, however, I took his points about economy and society to be the major issue, the fact that this is his country is without question. Also, the whole Native Americans not having power due to legality is not really a moral issue because legality is decided by the group that has power, they do not have power and cannot support a claim to power so therefore they are not the legal group. Stating that the Native Americans are not legally in control and things of that nature is more of an observation of current structures. A war could be considered illegal unless the aggressor wins, then legality is a non-issue from a practical viewpoint.

Part of the reason I consider there to be no moral issue is that the goal for America is the same for everyone or should be, so therefore all methods to reach that goal are valuable based on their ability to attain that goal. The issue is the long term well being of America and the relationship of immigration to this. I do not take any response by you personally, you did not insult my intelligence from what I perceive, you only support a different idea.

To sc, calling somebody a criminal for seeking freedom and opportunity is wrong, however, calling somebody a criminal for breaking a law is correct. The 2 things are not really related, they can be but a person can seek freedom and opportunity without breaking a law and a person can be a criminal without seeking freedom and opportunity. It is just illegal immigrants do both. I really don't care about the illegal immigrants, they are not protected by our laws and they do not belong here as illegal immigrants, however, I am for anything that promotes the nation's growth and strength. Throughout this entire discussion I have been mostly a devil's advocate without a real position of my own.