Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

Top Biblical Scholar Bart D. Ehrman Leaves Christianity

Page 2 of 5 [ 78 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

pandabear
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,402

21 Jul 2010, 11:15 am

AngelRho wrote:
pandabear wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Ah, yes... The Democratic People's Republic of Chapel Hill. Why they'd even HAVE religious studies at the university there is beyond my comprehension.


So, in the South, you actually have a tiny island of rationality in an ocean of ignorant snake handlers?

Most colleges and universities would have some sort of religious studies classes, as part of their humanities programs. And, the classes would seek to examine religion objectively. It wouldn't be about brainwashing people into being "saved."


Ehrman's views of Biblical inerrancy are hardly objective.


Where is he lacking in objectiviity? Is it because you disagree with him that he lacks objectivity?



Awesomelyglorious
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,157
Location: Omnipresent

21 Jul 2010, 11:17 am

AngelRho wrote:
Ehrman's views of Biblical inerrancy are hardly objective.

Compared to people who have to affirm inerrancy to maintain their position in their seminaries and in the church, and who practically uphold the matter as a dogma? Well, compared to them, Ehrman is a breath of fresh air, as he certainly has less holding him back from the proper conclusions there. I assume though, that your notion of "objective" is determined more by agreement with you than any matter of process.



leejosepho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,011
Location: 200 miles south of Little Rock

21 Jul 2010, 11:34 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
... the Christian bible upholds this notion:
* That believers can be distinguished by their works


It says followers will be known by their love for one another, and it could easily be said the man in the video has enough love for others to speak out as he does.

The problem in situations like this is a lack of common definition or understanding and usage of terms. For example, any mention of "the faith" is meaningless unless heard in an immediately-appropriate context. The man in the video appears to have left *a* faith, but that action does not say anything whatsoever about *the* faith.

Sometimes I am humored by people who insist on ever-wallowing in the mud, but their actions and my laughter are equally insulting to us all.


_________________
I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
==================================


Awesomelyglorious
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,157
Location: Omnipresent

21 Jul 2010, 12:51 pm

leejosepho wrote:
It says followers will be known by their love for one another, and it could easily be said the man in the video has enough love for others to speak out as he does.

The problem in situations like this is a lack of common definition or understanding and usage of terms. For example, any mention of "the faith" is meaningless unless heard in an immediately-appropriate context. The man in the video appears to have left *a* faith, but that action does not say anything whatsoever about *the* faith.

Sometimes I am humored by people who insist on ever-wallowing in the mud, but their actions and my laughter are equally insulting to us all.

Umm.... ok, but my point is that we should be able to identify "the faith", so that way we can determine who has left "the faith", or so we can determine if nobody ever leaves "the faith". The failing is that nobody provides a reasonable way to determine who is a Christian or who isn't other than "who leaves" and "who remains", which seems to be a failure.



leejosepho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,011
Location: 200 miles south of Little Rock

21 Jul 2010, 3:41 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
... my point is that we should be able to identify "the faith", so that way we can determine who has left "the faith", or so we can determine if nobody ever leaves "the faith". The failing is that nobody provides a reasonable way to determine who is a Christian or who isn't other than "who leaves" and "who remains", which seems to be a failure.


Understood, and a reasonable request ... yet why does it matter who either is or is not a Christian?

The number of people at my funeral might be determined by the weather that day, but the weather will not determine the day of my funeral.

Christianity is whatever it is, and who either leaves it or remains within is not going to change your life or mine one iota.


_________________
I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
==================================


Awesomelyglorious
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,157
Location: Omnipresent

21 Jul 2010, 3:55 pm

leejosepho wrote:
Understood, and a reasonable request ... yet why does it matter who either is or is not a Christian?

Are you paying attention to the conversation? Some people made the claim that who is Christian is determined by who stays, the issue is that the Bible makes other claims, if the theological structure of another person is internally inconsistent, or absurd in an ad hoc manner, then we can determine that they are likely false. This is of value to positions such as my own regarding the religion. As well, it removes any attempts to argue that Ehrman, because he left, was always an outsider, and thus not to be trusted. If Ehrman is shown to be an insider, then he gets back the credibility that others are trying to deny to him, as efforts to deny the existence of those who leave Christianity are often done to invalidate the experiences of other people.

Quote:
Christianity is whatever it is, and who either leaves it or remains within is not going to change your life or mine one iota.

Well, Christianity is false. Who leaves it will have abandoned one falsehood, and who remains in it will fail to do so. And what other people think on the matter will impact my life as well.



iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

21 Jul 2010, 4:14 pm

Sand wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Sand wrote:
But his indication he was a devoted Christian before he did intense studies of the various versions of the Bible and something in his discoveries made him lose his faith seems reasonable. Are you claiming without evidence that he never was a devoted Christian?


His reasoning for leaving would be of more importance than if he were devout. If his reasoning is based off of a few choice, cherry-picked, quotations, then we might do the same with statistical samplings. Let's go to a Star Trek convention and ask how many of the Star Trek experts think there is life on other planets. Or go to a lot of Hindus and ask them what their favorite condiments for hamburgers are.


His statement indicated he found great personal social difficulties with his decision. Are you claiming he's insincere? Why would he leave if it were a mere trivial matter?


Sincerity? What does sincerity matter when it comes to the veracity of the Christian faith as a whole? Sincerity matters in regard to witnessing an event, not in regard to the nature of truth.



Awesomelyglorious
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,157
Location: Omnipresent

21 Jul 2010, 4:34 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Sincerity? What does sincerity matter when it comes to the veracity of the Christian faith as a whole? Sincerity matters in regard to witnessing an event, not in regard to the nature of truth.

Sincerity matters in regard to evaluating the value of any source of knowledge. If the matter was a mere issue of mathematics, where anybody could check the result, then I can see why sincerity wouldn't matter, but in any affair where the information is difficult and in which we have to trust others, the sincerity of a source is relevant.



iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

21 Jul 2010, 4:51 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Sincerity? What does sincerity matter when it comes to the veracity of the Christian faith as a whole? Sincerity matters in regard to witnessing an event, not in regard to the nature of truth.

Sincerity matters in regard to evaluating the value of any source of knowledge. If the matter was a mere issue of mathematics, where anybody could check the result, then I can see why sincerity wouldn't matter, but in any affair where the information is difficult and in which we have to trust others, the sincerity of a source is relevant.


Like I said though, in regard to witnessing an event sincerity matters. If he had witnessed the events of the Bible personally, as an author, his sincerity would be of more value. However, as claiming to be an expert and dealing with textual matters his sincerity is secondary at best. He can be sincerely right or sincerely wrong all he likes.



Awesomelyglorious
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,157
Location: Omnipresent

21 Jul 2010, 4:58 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Like I said though, in regard to witnessing an event sincerity matters. If he had witnessed the events of the Bible personally, as an author, his sincerity would be of more value. However, as claiming to be an expert and dealing with textual matters his sincerity is secondary at best. He can be sincerely right or sincerely wrong all he likes.

Ehrman has witnessed his life and the academic community in which he stands, and the Christian community which he has left. All of which are somewhat relevant. Now, I think the issue started with YOU questioning his sincerity. So, the question here is why is his sincerity something to be questioned if you also think it is irrelevant?



iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

21 Jul 2010, 5:02 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Like I said though, in regard to witnessing an event sincerity matters. If he had witnessed the events of the Bible personally, as an author, his sincerity would be of more value. However, as claiming to be an expert and dealing with textual matters his sincerity is secondary at best. He can be sincerely right or sincerely wrong all he likes.

Ehrman has witnessed his life and the academic community in which he stands, and the Christian community which he has left. All of which are somewhat relevant. Now, I think the issue started with YOU questioning his sincerity. So, the question here is why is his sincerity something to be questioned if you also think it is irrelevant?


What?



iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

21 Jul 2010, 5:05 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Sand wrote:
But his indication he was a devoted Christian before he did intense studies of the various versions of the Bible and something in his discoveries made him lose his faith seems reasonable. Are you claiming without evidence that he never was a devoted Christian?


His reasoning for leaving would be of more importance than if he were devout. If his reasoning is based off of a few choice, cherry-picked, quotations, then we might do the same with statistical samplings. Let's go to a Star Trek convention and ask how many of the Star Trek experts think there is life on other planets. Or go to a lot of Hindus and ask them what their favorite condiments for hamburgers are.


AG, you're probably referring to this? The act of cherry-picking need not be done consciously. He could even sincerely believe his conclusions based upon his data set.



Awesomelyglorious
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,157
Location: Omnipresent

21 Jul 2010, 5:09 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Sand wrote:
But his indication he was a devoted Christian before he did intense studies of the various versions of the Bible and something in his discoveries made him lose his faith seems reasonable. Are you claiming without evidence that he never was a devoted Christian?


His reasoning for leaving would be of more importance than if he were devout. If his reasoning is based off of a few choice, cherry-picked, quotations, then we might do the same with statistical samplings. Let's go to a Star Trek convention and ask how many of the Star Trek experts think there is life on other planets. Or go to a lot of Hindus and ask them what their favorite condiments for hamburgers are.


AG, you're probably referring to this? The act of cherry-picking need not be done consciously. He could even sincerely believe his conclusions based upon his data set.

That is right, the act of cherrypicking need not be conscious.

Ok, I entered the conversation on the matter sort of late, after Sand questioned you on regarding him as sincere, and you blew it off, and your earlier comment, which you quoted, I ended up interpreting more like Sand did. I apologize if there was a misunderstanding.



Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

21 Jul 2010, 6:27 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Didn't that happen years ago?


My seeing the video just happened minutes ago so I'm posting now. :P


Sort of like watching Star Trek Enterprise for me? I wasn't watching television at the time because my stepdad was too busy looking for excuses to be a jerk. But since I haven't seen the series, with only a couple exceptions when I lived in a motel for a few months while employed for Wal-Fart and McDingleberry's simultaneously, the series is rather "new" to me.

I've been watching The Next Generation recently. Much better than the Original Series. (William Shatner kinda ruined the Original Series)

Quote:
Oh, by the way Anthony Flew, as long as this is an argument by individual example of an expert leaving the ideology for which they are an expert in.

For once, I'm going to agree with you. The tactic of saying "oh, this person switched from belief A to belief B, so belief A is obviously wrong!" is completely pointless. It's a favorite propaganda technique I've observed in Muslims, and it's a pity to see that they aren't the only group to waste time with such arguments.


_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH


skafather84
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,848
Location: New Orleans, LA

21 Jul 2010, 6:48 pm

Orwell wrote:
For once, I'm going to agree with you. The tactic of saying "oh, this person switched from belief A to belief B, so belief A is obviously wrong!" is completely pointless. It's a favorite propaganda technique I've observed in Muslims, and it's a pity to see that they aren't the only group to waste time with such arguments.



I thought it was exceptional since he's a scholar in the subject of what belief he left and he was able to articulate his concerns very well.


_________________
Wherever they burn books they will also, in the end, burn human beings. ~Heinrich Heine, Almansor, 1823

?I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs or insanity for everyone, but they've always worked for me.? - Hunter S. Thompson


Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 100
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

21 Jul 2010, 7:22 pm

Insofar as the Bible is concerned my personal view is that the King James version has a good deal of exceptional language and poetic imagery that is deeply woven into the traditions of western culture. On that basis it is worth reading. The philosophical core of the book is a very mixed bag with some decent behavioral directions mixed in with the most frightful fantastic and occasional horrific nonsense. To take the book literally seems to me to be insanity. When a man has spend a considerable portion of his life studying the book and sensibly deciding it is too far out to be swallowed whole I feel his personal viewpoint is worthwhile seriously considering.