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The Bahá'í Faith

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ruveyn
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30 Jul 2010, 8:39 am

From what I have read of the Ba'Hai, they seem like a peaceful decent group of people. Think of Islam transformed into something human and reasonable.

Ba Hai is to Islam as Bonobo is to Chimp.

ruveyn



Last edited by ruveyn on 30 Jul 2010, 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Khan_Sama
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30 Jul 2010, 11:42 am

Orwell wrote:
Khan_Sama wrote:
I've already explained this. Collective security.

That is not a satisfactory answer unless you have a universal arbiter that decides what side the collective security forces will back in any given conflict, and no such arbiter will ever be respected when push comes to shove. The Concert of Europe, the League of Nations, and many other collective security arrangements have been dismal failures, and when they finally come to an end the result is catastrophic warfare that ends up sucking in everyone. The only collective security arrangement to succeed has been NATO, because one massively powerful state was willing to enforce its will on the rest of the world and to use the threat of utter annihilation to ward off potential foes. I don't think the Baha'i endorse such an approach.

How would the Baha'i "Universal House of Justice" have arbitrated World War I, for instance? Both sides claimed the other was the aggressor, and even with 20/20 hindsight we can't clearly see who was wrong. There will be ambiguous situations in international affairs where you can't just say "Oh, this body will mediate and everything will work out." There will be situations where one side is dissatisfied enough that they might consider going to war.

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We welcome opposition - the truth is always opposed.

You will be opposed in more serious ways. If the Baha'i attempt to set up a world government to arbitrate international affairs, they can expect to be met by force. If they are unwilling to defend themselves by force of arms, and they are unwilling to involve themselves in years of political campaigning to diplomatically and peacefully establish their world government, it is not going to happen. That's really all there is to it. The methods you have proposed simply cannot and will not lead to the results you desire. This world you envision is no more realistic than the fantasies of Communist revolutionaries, anarchists, or the Venus Project.


I'm afraid, once again, I can't argue on a subject which I'm ignorant of. I can, however, direct you to some sources for your research:

http://bahai-library.com/writings/shoghieffendi/wob/

http://bahai-library.com/published.uhj/world.peace.html

Have fun reading. :-)

I would read it all myself... but it's not where my interest lies. I'm more interested in the historical and theological parts of the faith.

TechnicalPacifist wrote:
I must say, quite a lot of this actually corresponds with my beliefs.


Glad to hear that! If you're interested to know more (apart from administration and economics, to which I've admitted my ignorance), I'd be glad to help.



01001011
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30 Jul 2010, 8:26 pm

Khan_Sama wrote:

I'm afraid, once again, I can't argue on a subject which I'm ignorant of. I can, however, direct you to some sources for your research:

http://bahai-library.com/writings/shoghieffendi/wob/

http://bahai-library.com/published.uhj/world.peace.html

Have fun reading. :-)

I would read it all myself... but it's not where my interest lies. I'm more interested in the historical and theological parts of the faith.



'I cannot defend my belief but I believe some apologetic will defend it for me'. Such a typical Bahai reply...



Khan_Sama
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31 Jul 2010, 2:29 am

If you would prefer it, I would get a friend who has a greater knowledge on Baha'i administration to discuss it with you. I'm not learned when it comes to those topics. I apologise for my ignorance, but I also think you are too quick to judge a community of 5 million people based on the lack of knowledge of a single individual.

Also, the two sources I listed are not compiled by 'some apologetic'. They are authentic Baha'i texts by Shoghi Effendi, the guardian of the Baha'i faith, and the Universal House of Justice.



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01 Aug 2010, 8:20 pm

Go ahead. It is YOU who have the bundle to prove that your god exists, and your world theocracy ideal works.



ShenLong
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01 Aug 2010, 10:53 pm

It seems like a very good religion. I'm atheist, but I'm open to a lot of ideas. The Universe is very mysterious.



Khan_Sama
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02 Aug 2010, 2:25 am

Thank you ShenLong. :)

01001011 wrote:
Go ahead. It is YOU who have the bundle to prove that your god exists, and your world theocracy ideal works.


Not really, we're not persuasive bigots. We just teach what little we know to whoever is interested. If you're hostile towards us, there's little we can do apart from smile and wish you a good day. :)



01001011
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02 Aug 2010, 4:38 am

Khan_Sama wrote:

Not really, we're not persuasive bigots. We just teach what little we know to whoever is interested. If you're hostile towards us, there's little we can do apart from smile and wish you a good day. :)


You are unwilling / unable to convince a skeptic, yet you claim that you actually know something to teach?



greenblue
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02 Aug 2010, 5:03 am

01001011 wrote:
'I cannot defend my belief but I believe some apologetic will defend it for me'. Such a typical Bahai reply...

I don't see what is wrong with that, and I tend to think that is wise to avoid defending a position if one feels they may not be able to. And the issue that there are actually other people better at defending the same positions than others, given that they would be experts, having more knowledge about the subject, as well as being more argumentative skilled, and failing to properly defend a position for lacking of argumentative skills, lacking knowledge or the sort, may seem to be reasonble if one wants to avoid that.

Not that I'm defending the belief, as it appeals to the supernatural.

And well, my perspective seems that this is presented as an alternative to Christianity, given that some people are in contempt with it.


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Sand
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02 Aug 2010, 5:23 am

greenblue wrote:
01001011 wrote:
'I cannot defend my belief but I believe some apologetic will defend it for me'. Such a typical Bahai reply...

I don't see what is wrong with that, and I tend to think that is wise to avoid defending a position if one feels they may not be able to. And the issue that there are actually other people better at defending the same positions than others, given that they would be experts, having more knowledge about the subject, as well as being more argumentative skilled, and failing to properly defend a position for lacking of argumentative skills, lacking knowledge or the sort, may seem to be reasonble if one wants to avoid that.

Not that I'm defending the belief, as it appeals to the supernatural.

And well, my perspective seems that this is presented as an alternative to Christianity, given that some people are in contempt with it.


Perhaps it's not a matter of an aggressive attack but merely a search to discover why one should accept a faith.



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02 Aug 2010, 5:32 am

Personally, I do not come to forums like this to expect great amazing arguments that will convince me or others. For example, if I wanted to read clever, persuaive debates on Christianity, I would read books by famous anti-Christians like Dawkins or Bart Ehman and books by famous Christian apologists like CS Lewis. What I want from forums is a personal view of how people feel, what they went through etc. I like meeting people who have gone through religious experiences, converted to another religion or left a religion for emotional or logical reasons. I like to hear their stories and what happened to them and make friendships with people who can tell me interesting stuff. I think you should go to famous writers for clever debate like that, not expect it from someone telling their story. However when people like debating and can debate well and cleverly I like to read their threads. I do not think any of the fundamentalists/creationists here can do that, though i have met others who could. A lot of them have really stupid, distracting, irelevant arguements and avoid the real points they can't answer.



Khan_Sama
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02 Aug 2010, 5:46 am

Sand wrote:
greenblue wrote:
01001011 wrote:
'I cannot defend my belief but I believe some apologetic will defend it for me'. Such a typical Bahai reply...

I don't see what is wrong with that, and I tend to think that is wise to avoid defending a position if one feels they may not be able to. And the issue that there are actually other people better at defending the same positions than others, given that they would be experts, having more knowledge about the subject, as well as being more argumentative skilled, and failing to properly defend a position for lacking of argumentative skills, lacking knowledge or the sort, may seem to be reasonble if one wants to avoid that.

Not that I'm defending the belief, as it appeals to the supernatural.

And well, my perspective seems that this is presented as an alternative to Christianity, given that some people are in contempt with it.


Perhaps it's not a matter of an aggressive attack but merely a search to discover why one should accept a faith.


I'm afraid he didn't ask any specific question - just asserted that my lack of knowledge on the topic represents the attitude of all Baha'is. It was clearly an attack to besmirch the identity of Baha'is as a community, based on my lack of knowledge or experience.

To make is clear, I have read only writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdul Baha so far (and not even all of them - the writings are just too vast). The writings discussing administration and economics are the basic structure in these writings. It was the guardian of the Baha'i faith, Shoghi Effendi, who expanded Baha'i administration and economics. I haven't read any of his books so far. At the most, I've only read a few letters which he sent to some Baha'is, and the ones I have read are regarding theological issues. I just don't have the time to read so much. I've only been a Baha'i for one year, four months.

The Baha'i writings are indeed, very vast. I have chosen to concentrate on theological and historical issues for now. Other Baha'is made specialise in administration or economics. Some others choose to read more on Christian-Baha'i issues, or Hindu-Baha'i issues. I personally concentrate on Islamic-Baha'i issues, since I come from an Islamic background.

So you see, I can talk about the Baha'i faith to Muslims all day long without any problem. In fact, I recently did so with a certain Sufi who's interested. But bring up the concept of administration or economics, I can merely explain the basics which I'm aware of. If you wish to know more about Baha'i administration or economics, I could direct you to a source (as I have already done), or bring a friend who's knowledgeable on these topics, provided he has the time.

We don't engage in argument. It's pointless and goes against our aims of unity and cooperation.



Sand
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02 Aug 2010, 6:05 am

Khan_Sama wrote:
Sand wrote:
greenblue wrote:
01001011 wrote:
'I cannot defend my belief but I believe some apologetic will defend it for me'. Such a typical Bahai reply...

I don't see what is wrong with that, and I tend to think that is wise to avoid defending a position if one feels they may not be able to. And the issue that there are actually other people better at defending the same positions than others, given that they would be experts, having more knowledge about the subject, as well as being more argumentative skilled, and failing to properly defend a position for lacking of argumentative skills, lacking knowledge or the sort, may seem to be reasonble if one wants to avoid that.

Not that I'm defending the belief, as it appeals to the supernatural.

And well, my perspective seems that this is presented as an alternative to Christianity, given that some people are in contempt with it.


Perhaps it's not a matter of an aggressive attack but merely a search to discover why one should accept a faith.


I'm afraid he didn't ask any specific question - just asserted that my lack of knowledge on the topic represents the attitude of all Baha'is. It was clearly an attack to besmirch the identity of Baha'is as a community, based on my lack of knowledge or experience.

To make is clear, I have read only writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdul Baha so far (and not even all of them - the writings are just too vast). The writings discussing administration and economics are the basic structure in these writings. It was the guardian of the Baha'i faith, Shoghi Effendi, who expanded Baha'i administration and economics. I haven't read any of his books so far. At the most, I've only read a few letters which he sent to some Baha'is, and the ones I have read are regarding theological issues. I just don't have the time to read so much. I've only been a Baha'i for one year, four months.

The Baha'i writings are indeed, very vast. I have chosen to concentrate on theological and historical issues for now. Other Baha'is made specialise in administration or economics. Some others choose to read more on Christian-Baha'i issues, or Hindu-Baha'i issues. I personally concentrate on Islamic-Baha'i issues, since I come from an Islamic background.

So you see, I can talk about the Baha'i faith to Muslims all day long without any problem. In fact, I recently did so with a certain Sufi who's interested. But bring up the concept of administration or economics, I can merely explain the basics which I'm aware of. If you wish to know more about Baha'i administration or economics, I could direct you to a source (as I have already done), or bring a friend who's knowledgeable on these topics, provided he has the time.

We don't engage in argument. It's pointless and goes against our aims of unity and cooperation.


I am not arguing against your faith, merely noting that one must be somehow enthused about it to engage in what seems a great deal of study and understanding before one must even contemplate joining it.



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02 Aug 2010, 7:03 am

Very important point you have bought up Sand. The Ruhi institute has created a set of books which Baha'is discuss in groups of three or more. We usually ask people interested in the faith to join us in the group. The Ruhi courses explain the faith in such a manner that any individual can grasp the basics in a number of days. The course is conducted in such a way that every individual may be encouraged to develop his own opinions in an atmosphere of cooperation and understanding of diverse opinions.

I personally haven't finished more than one book of the Ruhi books due to the fact that no Baha'is live near my house. I am currently on book number two with a friend and his family - but they live so far that it takes me one and a half hours to travel to their home. At most, due to our conflicting schedules, we can go through the course once or twice a month.

http://www.ruhi.org/

We encourage every individual to research the Baha'i faith before accepting the covenant of Baha'u'llah. Independent investigation of truth is a very important tenet of the faith.



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02 Aug 2010, 9:17 am

Khan_Sama wrote:
I personally concentrate on Islamic-Baha'i issues, since I come from an Islamic background.

So you see, I can talk about the Baha'i faith to Muslims all day long without any problem. In fact, I recently did so with a certain Sufi who's interested.

Interesting. When speaking to Muslims about the Baha'i faith, how do you assuage their concerns about the consequences of apostasy? From what I understand, Islam is the kind of religion that makes it extremely difficult to leave (even up to threat of death in some parts of the world) and so considering a conversion to the Baha'i faith would be an incredible risk for many Muslims.


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02 Aug 2010, 1:07 pm

That's quite simple Orwell. When a Christian becomes a Baha'i, for example, he completely accepts the revelation of Prophet Muhammad and the Qur'an. We do not in any way deny the revelation of Muhammad. In fact, we try to explain the innate reality of Islam to those who attack that faith.

Apostasy generally implies that one forsakes a certain religion and doesn't believe in anything to do with it. When one becomes a Baha'i, he accepts everything to do with Islam.

Also, the Bab had abolished the Islamic law which is death for apostasy. When a Baha'i wants to leave the faith, he will be treated as a non-Baha'i. He will be treated with dignity and respect.

However, many fanatic Islamic clergy continue to treat us as apostates, and Baha'is continue to be persecuted all over the world.

I would like to share with you a song by Elika Mahony, a Baha'i singer, on persecution of Bahai's.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMf5kqGZ1EI&feature=related[/youtube]

As a fellow spiritual being, I'm sure you understand the importance of martyrs in matters of faith. When a person becomes a Baha'i, he must know that he will face many tests and tribulations throughout his life, including the possibility of a violent execution. When a test genuinely occurs without any provocation, we prepare ourselves for what is inevitable.

Here are two quotes by Baha'u'llah:

‎"O SON OF MAN! Thou art My dominion and My dominion perisheth not; wherefore fearest thou thy perishing? Thou art My light and My light shall never be extinguished; why dost thou dread extinction? Thou art My glory and My glory fadeth not; thou art My robe and My robe shall never be outworn. Abide then in thy love for Me, that thou mayest find Me in the realm of glory."—Bahá’u’lláh

O SON OF MAN! My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy. Hasten thereunto that thou mayest become an eternal light and an immortal spirit. This is My command unto thee, do thou observe it.