A quick quote from Jefferson

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I'm talking about cultural differences, not racial ones.

I honestly don't believe that America's enlightened liberal democracy(and in the sense you use these words to describe our system of government,) will survive against this demographic change with this huge influx of non-western values and peoples. I feel they are entering in such numbers(Latinos) that they won't assimilate and will just set up their own colonies and sub-empires that will eat at the core of the nation. I think it will eventually become apocolyptic faction-fighting, a drastic fall in standard-of-life and life-expectancy, petty dictatorships and warlords......... sort of like a modern-medieval era but with some modern technology used to accomplish mass genocide and ethinc cleansing against Whites, christians, and other vulnerable ethinc groups, and vice-versa. It will sort of be the Apocolypse meets the middle-ages meets the condensed Fall of Rome meets WWII.



I didn't cry foul....... I acknowledged that I did it too and I said we were even. I was just hoping for a good honest conversation without constant repetitive references to "Hitler and the Nazis" in every post.



He is more the result than the cause, from changes that really began back in 1965 with new immigration legislation that began this process.

It seems to me unfortunately that any criticism of Obama, even legitimate criticism, is unfairly dismissed by liberals as 'racist' or 'racialist' in the same reversal of racialist tactics that they often decry conservatives for.

The Democrats didn't hesitate to bash Bush for everything under the sun. I actually agree with most of the criticisms of Bush but the fact is that the Democrats have no right to demand a moratorium on Obama-criticism or to get mad at conservatives for resisting Obama. Anytime anyone challenges Obama or his plans for America, it is sometimes conveniently decried as racism by the left and the NAACP to try and make the criticism go away.

(sorry for my Obama digression but I had to get it off my chest.)



I agree.......... I don't think its about race or racial differences but about culture, but I guess this falls under the big blanket of mulitcultural(criticism.)

You are ignoring the reality that there are no magic jobs available for Islamics that allow them to violate the cost of living in north america, thus sustaining excessive birthrates. About four kids is the most a middle class couple can get away with having. A good read on the consequences of large families would be one of the books on fundamentalist mormon sects. They have to financially exploit and then expel young males.

Next, there is plenty of data to suggest that birthrates in the islamic home countries are falling fast. Here is one article.


http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Iran%27s+ ... a096417139

They don't need 'magic jobs' or high paying jobs to have large families and lots of kids. Oft-times they have large families and rely on and expect the host welfare system to sustain their brood. Not all do this, but usually its the other way around in that higher-income families regardless of race have fewer children. Taxpayers can wind up funding these large families. Or, poor people or middle-class people go beyond their means and have many kids but are unable to sustain what we perceive as the proper quality of life to raise them in.

In Islam and the Arab world, the old and elderly are venerated while the youth are minimalized and sort of expected to sacrifice for their elders(sort of the opposite of Western culture.) So they can theoretically have more children if they feel they don't have to fund them or raise them at the same level that Western middle-class families fund their children. Its sort of a clan system where the youth sort of scrape along and toughen up until adulthood and only get indulged on in old age(if they make it that far.)

Interesting that in their source countries their birthrates may be falling............. It doesn't address the demograpic changes in Western countries though.

I think the demographic changes may well pull a new middle-ages down that we may not come out of for centuries. I think over centuries, Islam will one day be as tolerant and progressive as Christianity and western cultures are today. I doubt it will happen in our lifetimes though.

I think developmentally, Islam is about 600 years behind Christianity(this is chronologically correct as well.) I feel that Islam is still mentally where Christianity was around the time of the Reformation(characterized by extreme intolerance.) I do feel that Islam will one day move past that paradigm of thought but not after many pains and struggles, bloody struggles which I think unfortunately many of us will witness first-hand.

I think Christianity as a religion is definitely past its prime.......... a glorious past and present but no future. Islam still has a destiny in front of it but it has many wars to fight before it fulfills its mission to the world.

Last edited by Hanotaux on 18 Aug 2010, 1:25 am, edited 3 times in total.

Actually, in the USA at least, for each extra dependent you have, you also have an additional tax break, so with more dependents you are able to keep more percentage of the income you earn. You still would need to have a good income in comparison to the cost of living in your area though.

Correct, but as you aptly pointed out, the tax base is disappearing as the white baby boomers retire. So no, their birthrates are not sustainable.

What will the economic situation be like in a couple of decades after all the baby-boomers have died of old age?

Then the riots and drama commence once the people(s) used to their dependency get ungraciously cut off.

In the reverse, minority fast-food workers are going to resent paying high taxes to support the SSI of baby-boomer retirees. I expect alot of turmoil. I have a hard time seeing the youthful descendents of the foreign 3rd-world workers who were supposedly brought in to "care for the aging population" accept paying large taxes to support millions of elderly.

My guess is "barter"

I don't think that any non-white minority group in America(not even Asians,) is yet mentally or socially ready to pick up, take the mantle from whites, and sustain the infrastructure of the USA as it is now. Collectively I just don't think any group besides whites have yet internalized the proper democratic values without being able to devolve into anarchy, dicatatorships, or warlord status. I suspect the USA will look a massive version of North St. Louis, but with much more intense violence, warlordship, ethnic battles, and just absolute chaos. I don't even have the proper words to describe just how it will be at present.

I think, as I said, that after centuries some ethnic group will evolve to re-commence a Renaissance or whatever, but it will take centuries. It took whites almost two-millenia to fully rebound from their Classical-Era and totally snap out of their dark ages. History will repeat itself most likely.

As much as I decry persecution of other cultures into western areas, there is something to be said about the cultures that accept obvious cruelties and debasement of women and permissive macho male dominance with violence. To excuse this on the basis of tradition is not acceptable. It is probably a mistake to assume parallel cultural lag of much of the Middle East must be altered by the actual passage of centuries to accommodate change. Since it is not a matter of logic or reason but, as in most religions, tradition, children born into Western cultures can quickly adapt and integrate if there are proper legal strictures maintained to see to it that beneficial Western human values are maintained. This is not to state that all Western values are necessarily superior since the West is obviously guilty in recent and current history of pretty awful behavior. But the change to civil decency can be managed. It must be managed. There is no getting away from the obvious fact that the world is becoming more and more accessible to cultural integration which has both good and bad consequences. People should be helped to make the proper accommodations, not rejected on the basis of race or origin.

Your statement about riots reminds me of some of Zeno's posts. You are not a zealot like he is though.

I think they'll just accept it and life will go on. Much like Europe has exceedingly high taxes. Unfortunate, but I'm guessing its destined to happen. Tax rate increases wont be sudden, as the baby boom is quite broad. They wont all retire together. My dad is among the oldest, born in 1947, and the youngest are from the mid-late nineteen sixties. You can also expect that retirement is put off by a lot of people. That will ease things.

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Thanks, I guess. I'm actually liberal when it comes to many issues but I'm conservative on the whole multicultural and Islamic influx thing. I sort of go back and forth between extremes, so I may balance out as a moderate in the end. I read that people with AS often hold views that are both very liberal and conservative and generally distance themselves from the consensus views of their peer age group. For example: 'Millenials' like myself for the most part love Obama and all he stands for, but I can't stand him or his policies or "change."

I hope America endures as a democracy or at least mabye a halfway-functional 2nd world country...... But honestly, I'm totally pessimistic at this point about the prospects of 'minority-majority America.' Liberal pundits seem to be crazy about the prospects, but everything I see tells me it will be extreme dysfunction. I don't think a minority-majority America is yet inevitable. I think the Islamic population in particular is yet small enough to be hopefully assimilated or mabye even repatriated somewhere. I think some of the minority groups though are big enough to where they may not assimilate at all and instead the country may be assimilated to them. Its all my random thoughts at 2:45 AM.

As far as the Baby Boomer/retiree/SSI situation goes, I just don't see a very good answer. My guess is still that there will be many minority and youth riots as they will feel, and justifiably, that they are slaving to sustain a large inactive and decadent population. I think many white youths will feel this way as well. In this decaying service economy, there just aren't many prospects for youth to find decent jobs. Even kids are graduating with college degrees in all fields but the job openings just aren't there. It seems like the Army is the only halfway-decent thing left. If not that then the drive-thru headset awaits.

The prejudices against ethnic groups involving their sequestration from cultural norms is a self fulfilling attitude. If immigrant groups are not permitted to live freely amongst the general public and are not permitted work that pays decently and are excluded from social groups then their only alternative is to keep to themselves and prolong their differences and also generate resentment at their exclusion. This can frequently become dangerous and even explosive. To fight terrorist inclinations the excluded group must be openly welcomed into general society.

I think it will be more like Europe is today in ways. They never had a baby boom after WWII. That was a phenomenon that occurred mostly in Canada, the US and Australia. We'll have a better balance of age groups in the population. Likely life will be slower with a focus on local production, less big box stores(dont cry for me walmart!), extended families living together. I think tax breaks for letting grandma live with you are likely.

One net benefit of low birthrates is that the youth generations are cherished. That should curtail sacrificial Middle East fundamentalism.

The latter editions of "boom bust and echo" were quite informative, though its probably somewhat dated now(it predates 9/11). It was an excellent book, slim and a good read.

OK. The previous alarmists were worried about the cultural differences as well, so you still haven't explained how the sky is actually falling this time when it wasn't before.


Yeah... that's not going to happen. Most immigrants do want to assimilate into the host culture, and even if they don't, their children are native-born Americans and will grow up with our values.


Not at all true. I constantly see liberals bashing Obama. The difference is that, unlike many on the right, their criticism doesn't consist of the frothing madness about Obama being a Muslim Communist Nazi baby killer who's going to oppress whites.


You don't think it's about race, and yet in another post you claimed that no non-white group would be capable of managing the state?

As far as culture, people worried about that when we had Catholics immigrating in large numbers. We survived, and we're no worse off for the addition.

OK........ It seems to me that liberals and the liberal media tolerate some limited satire of themeselves and official opposition, but as long as it doesn't get too out of control.



The thing that concerns me are situations like the recent mayorial elections in cities like Baltimore and Atlanta, where blacks have wished to rerun elections or have the government step in to force the result that a black-mayor-was-elected/white-mayor-removed so that the black majority would be represented by one of their own. I feel at this point if any minority was the majority across the whole country they would not yet tolerate any other leaders not of their ethnicity. Only whites have evolved(and only barely and begrudgingly I admit) at this point, to tolerate an Obama. Minorites would all probably find their own Mugabes for a time to redistribute all resources under their control and create a larger scale repeats of the Zimbabwae and South Africa situations.

Throught history, people have wanted to be led by one of their own ethnic stripe, with the same last names and skin color as themselves.



As I said, the visible racial differences and hatred of interrracial relationships will create automatic uniforms based on skin-color. Black youths will ire at seeing loads of Muslims youths(moving in on their turf.) In fact, blacks in America seemingly already chafe because they perceive that they are no longer the favored minority of the Democratic party at the expense of the Dems catering to Hispanics and Muslims. I actually think it will be more black/vs./mexcian, mexican/vs/muslim, and any combo of the above, with dwindling whites trying desperately to hold it all together for a period of time. As the white population dwindles and becomes poorer, the minorities in general will all be angered as their social services and preferences that they have become accustomed to diminsh and will react accordingly.



It seems quite the opposite in countries like France and Germany where it seems to me the older 'guest-workers' are the ones who want to assimilate and their offspring are the ones who are feeling disenfranchised with the system. The reason I think is that the older immigrants have the experience of immigration and know how good they have it in the host country. I disagree totally with the above.



It wasn't as big as in America, but Europe actually had a population spike, especially in France. France gained about 8 million people between 1945-1960 after almost a century of stagnation. Germany also sort of grew as millions of Germans were re-deposited in West Germany after mass-expulsion from East Prussia and East Europe after WWII.

I'm not talking satire, I'm talking about actual liberal opposition to Obama on substantive policy grounds. You can find liberals saying "The health care bill was a disappointment because of the deals with the drug companies and the lack of a public option." You will find conservatives screaming "ZOMG DEATH PANELS!! !!"

The difference between these two? One is behaving like a rational adult, the other is batshit crazy. Sadly, the latter seems to be extremely common among conservative circles these days.

As far as "out of control," when you have people shouting about armed resistance, that's usually a sign that it's out of control and you should be concerned.


Which is why Asians, Hispanics, Blacks, and every other ethnic group in America routinely vote for white candidates?


How is it any different from now? We already have way too many blacks and hispanics to just deport them all. What is your solution?


Well, blacks aren't going back to the Republican Party anytime soon. The Dems haven't really been catering to Muslims as of yet; they aren't a big enough demographic for either party to care about courting their votes. And the Republicans have been pandering to Hispanics at least as much as the Democrats, if not more.

Now, you said a while ago that it wasn't about race, but rather about culture. Since then you have gone on a series of entirely racially-based claims and speculations. I suspect it is about race with you, and just like other racists you cloak it in euphemistic nonsense about "culture."