Secularization enables the growth of Islam.

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No, I meant the general PC bias atmosphere created by morons who only like to go with the flow because they don't want to speak their mind and thus stand out. However, in regard to Dawkin's he for once has said something that ever so slightly makes sense:

Assuming this is an actual Dawkins quote (and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt), I hope you have something stronger than this. Because I've just refuted your birth demographic arguments for the "Islamification" of Europe - and I see know evidence of Islamic proselytizers having unlimited success at spreading the faith. Sure, there's some evidence conversions to Islam among poor inner-city African Americans is on the rise - but nothing that exponential or evident of being sustained.

And, for the record, I don't regard Richard Dawkins as infallible.

You see no evidence of Islamic proselytizers? And then you give an example of a type? ??? I didn't know they cared to do peaceful proselytization. I thought is was mainly through their children or, historically, by the sword. (And yes, I know historically the Spaniards also converted by the sword. Heck, the rest of Europe was fed up with Spain while they were going about their bloody business. The continental Spanish seemed to be extremely kick-butt after their reconquest of Spain from the Muslims.)

Yeah, yeah. I know, distance yourself from people when they say something you don't want to be associated with, classic human crap, no surprise.

I find white girls several degrees more attractive than minority girls. Follow the content if you like but I suspect many will LOVE the copious volume of stunning Germanic babes.

I respect your opinion but I suggest you let me choose my own business path. I don't go to where you work and tell you how to flip burgers or whatever it is you do.

Last edited by Hanotaux on 29 Aug 2010, 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

The whole proselytizers spiel was me trying to be charitable to your thesis. The only way I thought that 4.5% of European Muslims (with declining birthrates each generation) could possibly Islamify Western Europe is if they each converted more than a few people. But now I see you weren't going down that road.

So, tell me, are hordes of Muslims from the Middle East and Indonesia going to declare war on the postindustrial world or are the 4.5% of Western European Muslims going to take on everyone else in Europe in a guerilla war? Or are you going to evade my objections again and again.

Aside from a few comments on the "Theistic Spectrum of Probabilty", when have I ever referenced Dawkins? Moreover, when have I referenced him approvingly?

My Dawkins example still serves the purpose of disproving your point about "secular leaders" being universally welcoming to Islam.

And perhaps someone whose (at least recent) life history has been spent under a top-down authoritarian belief structure might have difficulty accepting this, but I DON'T ACCEPT PEOPLE AS INFALLIBLE PROPHETS!! ! As much as I admire Ed Broadbent, Olof Palme, Thomas Frank, PZ Myers, Bertrand Russell, Nettie Wiebe, Chris Hedges, Polly Toynbee, Dean Baker, Richard Carrier, Daniel C. Dennett, Ralph Nader, Dennis Kucinich, or any number of other people, I don't regard them as infallible or even morally perfect.

Thanks for providing the source like I asked, by the way.

The problem with a secular society is that it presumes that logic and science can answer all questions, but it cannot.

Religion addresses a real need of humanity. Perhaps if science was more "open minded" to include the paranormal (things that will be provable if we only had instruments that could measure them), science could explore the questions of life, the universe and everything.

Absent such inclusiveness, religion is always sought to fill the void that secularism cannot fill. When Islamic states embrace secularism, in a generation they find that deeper issues go unfulfilled by a secular society and this give Islam a place to evangelize as never before...with many hungry for answers secular society isn't providing.

That is true. Physical science cannot tell us what to value and what ends to pursue.

ruveyn

False dichotomy.

/thread.

Conclusion: We need more secularization not less, and promote secularization in all countries not just US (as if anyone pro-secularization would propose it to only happen on occidental countries...)

Thank you. I applaud that you keep driving it home. Dont stop. The truth is all that counts.

If this had been any other forum on the internet, islamophobes would have come out in droves spouting their drivel. Is the rampant islamophobia absent because this is an AS forum, or some other reason? I think it's very interesting considering how ingrained islamophobia has been become in western thought.

Also, just to make it simple; 95% of muslims in Europe pose no threat to security at all. As in, litterary none. How to handle the other 5% is an important discussion but it's impossible to be constructive about it given the cultural climate.

No they're not. Once again:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt128851.html.

The only possible way for their populations to grow is either due to Muslim immigrants from the East or due to conversions to Islam.

Dude. You're scaring people. 5% is a massive number. You might want to define what you mean by "threat to security".

Thats 5% of 4.5% of all the people in Europe.

And its probably far less than 5%.

Abu_Zarqawi, WP can be crazy at times, but most of us are rational and analytical. And I doubt its as bad as you think, being a bit of a hot point in youthful minds only.

I'm not really interested in your website; I was just hassling you for your racist attitude, suggesting it could cost you business.