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skafather84
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30 Aug 2010, 3:21 pm

Pistonhead wrote:
Satan is from what I've heard based off of sumerian gods. Sumerian gods had horns and seeing as other religions are the enemy of God/Yahweh's religions it was easier to pervert the old gods than to create new evil ones.


Of course but I'm not talking in the literal sense of competition of religions. I could care less whose god is the neatest.


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30 Aug 2010, 3:36 pm

satan is imo a group consciousness that arises from the state of detachment from the creative spirit. Humanity is pretty muchriddled with it to a greater or lesser extent - its not just this or that religion, activity or behaviour - it permeates through pretty much everything. The opposite state of being in touch with the creative spirit cant be described, especially not by me bit is along the lines of realising that everyone & everything is one consciousness etc. Satans agenda is in a way trying to 'hijack' creation, but only because it cant comprehend what that really means, if all its component parts did suddenly have that transcendental experience all at the same time then it would stop (imagine an angry/scared/lustful/etc person suddenly laughing & immediately calming down) So we have two oneness campaigns being played out.

The best metaphor ive heard for satan is jonathons 'cancer consciouness' You can visualise cancer as being satanic energy being played out on a cellular level, the traumatised cells have forgotten that they were a part of something greater (in this case the person/animal) so they become detached, insecure, terrified of dying - and seek self-preservation by growing larger, co-opting the neighbouring cells until it can eventually make a scaler jump to the organ (the nature of this detached state is that it doesnt realise that its eventually going to kill its own host)

This is in some ways the secrets to satans 'success' ; when your dealing with a diseased state you really need to fully understand the opposite healthy state first. eg. a doctor doesnt learn how to heal on their first day, they spend a long time familiarising themselves with normal homeostaic functions of the body beforehand, trying to get a feel for what it should look like. In modern society any innate understanding of creation, all the capacity for intuition you would develop naturally gets attacked pretty much as soon as your born.

im not going to say too much about it because im tired & ill just be repeating what jonathon/adampants2007 said a few years ago.

google 'the healing begins now' by adampants2007/2008 - ive listened to all his series several times - this guy is the real deal :)



Last edited by psych on 30 Aug 2010, 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

danandlouie
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30 Aug 2010, 3:46 pm

in all honesty, i'm glad most humans believe in satan 'devil'. i have worked around people who seemed to be saying their fear of going to 'hell' kept them from being criminals and such. questioning them about such beliefs was beyond my ability for various reasons.......main one being my complete lack of comprehending human action/speech (meaning).

i do think they were serious. scary, true.......but none the less honest in their speech.

does religion use this 'fear' as a way to keep the faithful in line? once again i am clueless. how is this possible? early age brainwashing?



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30 Aug 2010, 6:13 pm

Abu_Zarqawi wrote:
Satan is the material world, containing all the petty affairs and emotions of men. As such, we were fused with him at the moment of conception, when the physical being emerged, and are in his midst until the day we cease to be. There is no hell awaiting us after we die. Hell is awaiting us when we are born.



Is the material world sentient. Is the material world a person?

ruveyhn



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30 Aug 2010, 6:17 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Abu_Zarqawi wrote:
Satan is the material world, containing all the petty affairs and emotions of men. As such, we were fused with him at the moment of conception, when the physical being emerged, and are in his midst until the day we cease to be. There is no hell awaiting us after we die. Hell is awaiting us when we are born.



Is the material world sentient. Is the material world a person?

Yes, and she said hello.


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Sand
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30 Aug 2010, 7:27 pm

skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
In the whole God/Satan, Fall of Satan paradigm, what does Satan represent to you/your interpretation?

To me, the whole thing seems to be a matter of creation vs power over creation. God creates everything but then grants free will. Satan acts out of jealousy but what the motive seems to be is more a want of the power of free will or the power over others. In the same way, if we look at most evil deeds, they're acts of controlling power over others. Wars are fought for power and control (resources may be a product sought after but control of those resources is the end game which in the aftermath grants power to the winning leadership).

Of course, Satan is classically portrayed as temptation...but isn't even that a matter of Satan trying to act as an influence and controlling power?

I think it comes down to a want of power vs a want of liberty.


Power to do what?


To make you kiss my feet if I so wanted.

/expression of power over others merely for power's sake
//it's what drives more priests and politicians than anyone'd ever be comfortable admitting


S Satan is the same kind of imbecile as God who dreams only of people kissing feet? I can't imagine any sane intellect needing to have feet kissed. What a dopey concept.


You miss the point but I don't really care. This kind of exercise doesn't really seem to be your forte. Abstract concepts and philosophical interpretations. You seem more a person for the concrete and probably consider the abstract a waste of time.


You might be right. The discussion does have an Aliceinwonderlandish flavor.



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30 Aug 2010, 8:20 pm

From my point of view, Satan is the best friend mankind has ever had. In an allegorical sense, that celestial dictator known as Yahweh wanted our species to remain ignorant beasts within the garden of eden for all eternity. Satan, however saw through this, and gave humankind an offer to pursue greatness equal to that of Yahweh. Faced with a threat to his power, god dealt with Adam and Eve in the same way that he had dealt with lucifer. Then like an abusive boyfriend, yahweh offered several chances to get back in his good graces. All he asked in return was a series of death to self ideologies that had to be followed to the letter. Many follow these with out question, while a small number have, like lucifer, seen through these subsequent deceptions. But anyways, thats just my point of view.



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30 Aug 2010, 9:06 pm

Whitecrow323 wrote:
From my point of view, Satan is the best friend mankind has ever had. In an allegorical sense, that celestial dictator known as Yahweh wanted our species to remain ignorant beasts within the garden of eden for all eternity. Satan, however saw through this, and gave humankind an offer to pursue greatness equal to that of Yahweh. Faced with a threat to his power, god dealt with Adam and Eve in the same way that he had dealt with lucifer. Then like an abusive boyfriend, yahweh offered several chances to get back in his good graces. All he asked in return was a series of death to self ideologies that had to be followed to the letter. Many follow these with out question, while a small number have, like lucifer, seen through these subsequent deceptions. But anyways, thats just my point of view.


It's basically the same legend as Prometheus.



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30 Aug 2010, 10:40 pm

Whitecrow323 wrote:
From my point of view, Satan is the best friend mankind has ever had. In an allegorical sense, that celestial dictator known as Yahweh wanted our species to remain ignorant beasts within the garden of eden for all eternity. Satan, however saw through this, and gave humankind an offer to pursue greatness equal to that of Yahweh. Faced with a threat to his power, god dealt with Adam and Eve in the same way that he had dealt with lucifer. Then like an abusive boyfriend, yahweh offered several chances to get back in his good graces. All he asked in return was a series of death to self ideologies that had to be followed to the letter. Many follow these with out question, while a small number have, like lucifer, seen through these subsequent deceptions. But anyways, thats just my point of view.



Satan's motives were to gain a foothold over the fate of mankind. His motives weren't to enlighten humanity but rather to enslave them to his will and gain power over yahweh. The consequences in the story are incidental to the underlying motives. And who is to say that they were bestial? Just because they were nude and gained a sense of shame? I fail to see how this is something gained. Shame only serves to unjustly influence one's choices.

To portray it as the satan character acting as a prometheus is to ignore the other aspects of the story and ignore other implications within the story. Which, by the way, I think the prometheus story is a very noble one...the bringing of fire to those lower than yourself and to truly illuminate their lives; even at your own risk of peril.


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30 Aug 2010, 10:58 pm

skafather84 wrote:
Whitecrow323 wrote:
From my point of view, Satan is the best friend mankind has ever had. In an allegorical sense, that celestial dictator known as Yahweh wanted our species to remain ignorant beasts within the garden of eden for all eternity. Satan, however saw through this, and gave humankind an offer to pursue greatness equal to that of Yahweh. Faced with a threat to his power, god dealt with Adam and Eve in the same way that he had dealt with lucifer. Then like an abusive boyfriend, yahweh offered several chances to get back in his good graces. All he asked in return was a series of death to self ideologies that had to be followed to the letter. Many follow these with out question, while a small number have, like lucifer, seen through these subsequent deceptions. But anyways, thats just my point of view.



Satan's motives were to gain a foothold over the fate of mankind. His motives weren't to enlighten humanity but rather to enslave them to his will and gain power over yahweh. The consequences in the story are incidental to the underlying motives. And who is to say that they were bestial? Just because they were nude and gained a sense of shame? I fail to see how this is something gained. Shame only serves to unjustly influence one's choices.

To portray it as the satan character acting as a prometheus is to ignore the other aspects of the story and ignore other implications within the story. Which, by the way, I think the prometheus story is a very noble one...the bringing of fire to those lower than yourself and to truly illuminate their lives; even at your own risk of peril.


Both Satan and Prometheus are tales of revolt against absolute authority. That Satan is considered cruel and vicious is rather amusing considering the many stories of the incredibly brutal acts described of God's repeated murdering of entire populaces for some violation of His ordinances. Adam and Eve were bestial in being denied the freedom to gain all knowledge. The fire that Prometheus carried was the flame of knowledge.



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30 Aug 2010, 11:05 pm

Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Whitecrow323 wrote:
From my point of view, Satan is the best friend mankind has ever had. In an allegorical sense, that celestial dictator known as Yahweh wanted our species to remain ignorant beasts within the garden of eden for all eternity. Satan, however saw through this, and gave humankind an offer to pursue greatness equal to that of Yahweh. Faced with a threat to his power, god dealt with Adam and Eve in the same way that he had dealt with lucifer. Then like an abusive boyfriend, yahweh offered several chances to get back in his good graces. All he asked in return was a series of death to self ideologies that had to be followed to the letter. Many follow these with out question, while a small number have, like lucifer, seen through these subsequent deceptions. But anyways, thats just my point of view.



Satan's motives were to gain a foothold over the fate of mankind. His motives weren't to enlighten humanity but rather to enslave them to his will and gain power over yahweh. The consequences in the story are incidental to the underlying motives. And who is to say that they were bestial? Just because they were nude and gained a sense of shame? I fail to see how this is something gained. Shame only serves to unjustly influence one's choices.

To portray it as the satan character acting as a prometheus is to ignore the other aspects of the story and ignore other implications within the story. Which, by the way, I think the prometheus story is a very noble one...the bringing of fire to those lower than yourself and to truly illuminate their lives; even at your own risk of peril.


Both Satan and Prometheus are tales of revolt against absolute authority. That Satan is considered cruel and vicious is rather amusing considering the many stories of the incredibly brutal acts described of God's repeated murdering of entire populaces for some violation of His ordinances. Adam and Eve were bestial in being denied the freedom to gain all knowledge. The fire that Prometheus carried was the flame of knowledge.


One person gives a man food with the intent of later coercing him into his service in some manner. Another person gives another man food with no intent other than to assist that man. Is there a difference between the two? I think you're missing the underlying motive which is always important in one's actions.

Edit: Also, I'm not speaking from a theistic standpoint of defending actions. Merely looking to interpret and share interpretations of various mythical figures. I'd talk about Eris (since her myth is one of my favorites) but I doubt anyone here is really familiar with her myth or her existence, in general (maybe people who heard of the phone and wondered what that name meant).


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30 Aug 2010, 11:08 pm

skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Whitecrow323 wrote:
From my point of view, Satan is the best friend mankind has ever had. In an allegorical sense, that celestial dictator known as Yahweh wanted our species to remain ignorant beasts within the garden of eden for all eternity. Satan, however saw through this, and gave humankind an offer to pursue greatness equal to that of Yahweh. Faced with a threat to his power, god dealt with Adam and Eve in the same way that he had dealt with lucifer. Then like an abusive boyfriend, yahweh offered several chances to get back in his good graces. All he asked in return was a series of death to self ideologies that had to be followed to the letter. Many follow these with out question, while a small number have, like lucifer, seen through these subsequent deceptions. But anyways, thats just my point of view.



Satan's motives were to gain a foothold over the fate of mankind. His motives weren't to enlighten humanity but rather to enslave them to his will and gain power over yahweh. The consequences in the story are incidental to the underlying motives. And who is to say that they were bestial? Just because they were nude and gained a sense of shame? I fail to see how this is something gained. Shame only serves to unjustly influence one's choices.

To portray it as the satan character acting as a prometheus is to ignore the other aspects of the story and ignore other implications within the story. Which, by the way, I think the prometheus story is a very noble one...the bringing of fire to those lower than yourself and to truly illuminate their lives; even at your own risk of peril.


Both Satan and Prometheus are tales of revolt against absolute authority. That Satan is considered cruel and vicious is rather amusing considering the many stories of the incredibly brutal acts described of God's repeated murdering of entire populaces for some violation of His ordinances. Adam and Eve were bestial in being denied the freedom to gain all knowledge. The fire that Prometheus carried was the flame of knowledge.


One person gives a man food with the intent of later coercing him into his service in some manner. Another person gives another man food with no intent other than to assist that man. Is there a difference between the two? I think you're missing the underlying motive which is always important in one's actions.

Edit: Also, I'm not speaking from a theistic standpoint of defending actions. Merely looking to interpret and share interpretations of various mythical figures. I'd talk about Eris (since her myth is one of my favorites) but I doubt anyone here is really familiar with her myth or her existence, in general (maybe people who heard of the phone and wondered what that name meant).


There is a vital difference between bribing someone with a reward and opening minds to total knowledge.



skafather84
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30 Aug 2010, 11:16 pm

Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Whitecrow323 wrote:
From my point of view, Satan is the best friend mankind has ever had. In an allegorical sense, that celestial dictator known as Yahweh wanted our species to remain ignorant beasts within the garden of eden for all eternity. Satan, however saw through this, and gave humankind an offer to pursue greatness equal to that of Yahweh. Faced with a threat to his power, god dealt with Adam and Eve in the same way that he had dealt with lucifer. Then like an abusive boyfriend, yahweh offered several chances to get back in his good graces. All he asked in return was a series of death to self ideologies that had to be followed to the letter. Many follow these with out question, while a small number have, like lucifer, seen through these subsequent deceptions. But anyways, thats just my point of view.



Satan's motives were to gain a foothold over the fate of mankind. His motives weren't to enlighten humanity but rather to enslave them to his will and gain power over yahweh. The consequences in the story are incidental to the underlying motives. And who is to say that they were bestial? Just because they were nude and gained a sense of shame? I fail to see how this is something gained. Shame only serves to unjustly influence one's choices.

To portray it as the satan character acting as a prometheus is to ignore the other aspects of the story and ignore other implications within the story. Which, by the way, I think the prometheus story is a very noble one...the bringing of fire to those lower than yourself and to truly illuminate their lives; even at your own risk of peril.


Both Satan and Prometheus are tales of revolt against absolute authority. That Satan is considered cruel and vicious is rather amusing considering the many stories of the incredibly brutal acts described of God's repeated murdering of entire populaces for some violation of His ordinances. Adam and Eve were bestial in being denied the freedom to gain all knowledge. The fire that Prometheus carried was the flame of knowledge.


One person gives a man food with the intent of later coercing him into his service in some manner. Another person gives another man food with no intent other than to assist that man. Is there a difference between the two? I think you're missing the underlying motive which is always important in one's actions.

Edit: Also, I'm not speaking from a theistic standpoint of defending actions. Merely looking to interpret and share interpretations of various mythical figures. I'd talk about Eris (since her myth is one of my favorites) but I doubt anyone here is really familiar with her myth or her existence, in general (maybe people who heard of the phone and wondered what that name meant).


There is a vital difference between bribing someone with a reward and opening minds to total knowledge.


And with the garden of eden myth, the act was one of positioning a foe's ally to better suit your needs and sabotage your foe's work rather than simply opening minds.


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30 Aug 2010, 11:22 pm

skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Whitecrow323 wrote:
From my point of view, Satan is the best friend mankind has ever had. In an allegorical sense, that celestial dictator known as Yahweh wanted our species to remain ignorant beasts within the garden of eden for all eternity. Satan, however saw through this, and gave humankind an offer to pursue greatness equal to that of Yahweh. Faced with a threat to his power, god dealt with Adam and Eve in the same way that he had dealt with lucifer. Then like an abusive boyfriend, yahweh offered several chances to get back in his good graces. All he asked in return was a series of death to self ideologies that had to be followed to the letter. Many follow these with out question, while a small number have, like lucifer, seen through these subsequent deceptions. But anyways, thats just my point of view.



Satan's motives were to gain a foothold over the fate of mankind. His motives weren't to enlighten humanity but rather to enslave them to his will and gain power over yahweh. The consequences in the story are incidental to the underlying motives. And who is to say that they were bestial? Just because they were nude and gained a sense of shame? I fail to see how this is something gained. Shame only serves to unjustly influence one's choices.

To portray it as the satan character acting as a prometheus is to ignore the other aspects of the story and ignore other implications within the story. Which, by the way, I think the prometheus story is a very noble one...the bringing of fire to those lower than yourself and to truly illuminate their lives; even at your own risk of peril.


Both Satan and Prometheus are tales of revolt against absolute authority. That Satan is considered cruel and vicious is rather amusing considering the many stories of the incredibly brutal acts described of God's repeated murdering of entire populaces for some violation of His ordinances. Adam and Eve were bestial in being denied the freedom to gain all knowledge. The fire that Prometheus carried was the flame of knowledge.


One person gives a man food with the intent of later coercing him into his service in some manner. Another person gives another man food with no intent other than to assist that man. Is there a difference between the two? I think you're missing the underlying motive which is always important in one's actions.

Edit: Also, I'm not speaking from a theistic standpoint of defending actions. Merely looking to interpret and share interpretations of various mythical figures. I'd talk about Eris (since her myth is one of my favorites) but I doubt anyone here is really familiar with her myth or her existence, in general (maybe people who heard of the phone and wondered what that name meant).


There is a vital difference between bribing someone with a reward and opening minds to total knowledge.


And with the garden of eden myth, the act was one of positioning a foe's ally to better suit your needs and sabotage your foe's work rather than simply opening minds.


The Bible, of course, is God's point of view. Are you privileged to read the inner workings of Satan's mind?



skafather84
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30 Aug 2010, 11:26 pm

Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Whitecrow323 wrote:
From my point of view, Satan is the best friend mankind has ever had. In an allegorical sense, that celestial dictator known as Yahweh wanted our species to remain ignorant beasts within the garden of eden for all eternity. Satan, however saw through this, and gave humankind an offer to pursue greatness equal to that of Yahweh. Faced with a threat to his power, god dealt with Adam and Eve in the same way that he had dealt with lucifer. Then like an abusive boyfriend, yahweh offered several chances to get back in his good graces. All he asked in return was a series of death to self ideologies that had to be followed to the letter. Many follow these with out question, while a small number have, like lucifer, seen through these subsequent deceptions. But anyways, thats just my point of view.



Satan's motives were to gain a foothold over the fate of mankind. His motives weren't to enlighten humanity but rather to enslave them to his will and gain power over yahweh. The consequences in the story are incidental to the underlying motives. And who is to say that they were bestial? Just because they were nude and gained a sense of shame? I fail to see how this is something gained. Shame only serves to unjustly influence one's choices.

To portray it as the satan character acting as a prometheus is to ignore the other aspects of the story and ignore other implications within the story. Which, by the way, I think the prometheus story is a very noble one...the bringing of fire to those lower than yourself and to truly illuminate their lives; even at your own risk of peril.


Both Satan and Prometheus are tales of revolt against absolute authority. That Satan is considered cruel and vicious is rather amusing considering the many stories of the incredibly brutal acts described of God's repeated murdering of entire populaces for some violation of His ordinances. Adam and Eve were bestial in being denied the freedom to gain all knowledge. The fire that Prometheus carried was the flame of knowledge.


One person gives a man food with the intent of later coercing him into his service in some manner. Another person gives another man food with no intent other than to assist that man. Is there a difference between the two? I think you're missing the underlying motive which is always important in one's actions.

Edit: Also, I'm not speaking from a theistic standpoint of defending actions. Merely looking to interpret and share interpretations of various mythical figures. I'd talk about Eris (since her myth is one of my favorites) but I doubt anyone here is really familiar with her myth or her existence, in general (maybe people who heard of the phone and wondered what that name meant).


There is a vital difference between bribing someone with a reward and opening minds to total knowledge.


And with the garden of eden myth, the act was one of positioning a foe's ally to better suit your needs and sabotage your foe's work rather than simply opening minds.


The Bible, of course, is God's point of view. Are you privileged to read the inner workings of Satan's mind?


That'd require such things existed. Again, this is working in the abstract.


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31 Aug 2010, 12:01 am

In Christian mythology, Satan traditionally symbolizes arrogance ("the pride before the fall"), vanity, rebelliousness, greed, power lust, envy, cruelty, deceit and empty promises, and other vices. In Paradise Lost, the emphasized vices are vanity, arrogance, and rebelliousness; Lucifer, most beautiful of the angels, is dissatisfied with being second best in God's cosmic order, so he rebels, eventually being relegated to Hell where he can reign in an infernal kingdom that is a warped and disfiguring mirror of Heaven. The Jewish and Christian traditions both portray Satan as a tempter of humans away from God and towards sin. In Faust, we see Satan as tempter, exchanging mortal gain for eternal damnation, and then of course there's the story of the forbidden fruit from the book of Genesis. Christianity really brought about (into the Abrahamic tradition) the Manichean split of an all-good God and an all-evil Satan locked in cosmic duel, but this is of course Mazdaism at core; this allegory is quite literally productive with The Lord of the Rings being just one nod to Paradise Lost. Nietzsche would have us look Beyond Good and Evl to see humanity's shadow in the evil traits ascribed to Satan, even exhorting their inculcation, their integration as a "master morality" into a personality suitable for a "will to power."

Jewish and Christian gnosticism treated the material world as inherently foul and corrupt and considered Yahweh, as the creator thereof, to be evil. This asceticism found itself in the Christian monastic tradition which in turn informs the world rejection of Fundamentalist Christianity.

Various shamanistic and animistic religions perceive demons or spirits of often ambiguous moral stances towards humans (e.g., Arabian djinn).