'everybody draw mohammed day'

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Well much of Europe anyway. To my knowledge the UK is the worst with the other countries having varying degrees of freedom, Finland probably being the most reasonable. I'm pretty sure you can own a gun in France or Germany with paperwork and the Swiss mandate that you have a machine gun in your house, I'm not so sure on the rest of the continent.

As someone who lives in Europe, I hope you aren't being serious with that comment, LOL!

No guns in uk, germany. France i don't know. Switzerland only for ex soldiers (take their gun home).

LOL. Sorry dude you i think you are crazy.

I'd feel far less safe if any nut job could easily buy a gun.

I would guess that most people in the UK have never seen a gun held by anyone other than a police officer, a soldier or maybe a farmer. For me, that is a good thing.

If the guns are so easy to get hold of then the bad guys are more likely to be carrying guns too. Lose - lose situation IMO.

See folks, this is what people like myself mean when we talk about conditioned dependence. I could give my usual spiel about criminals by definition ignoring laws and the failures of the prohibition model when it comes to anything, but I strongly suspect my words would fall on deaf ears. Forgive me the generalization, but it seems that an awful lot of Europeans in general think of government as the solution, no matter what the question, and I doubt a few words on the internet are going to undue decades of indoctrination into that mindset.

But to specifically address what I put in bold: As opposed to the current model, in which only the bad guys are likely to be carrying guns? Or knives, clubs etc since with a disarmed and dependent populace a gun isn't even necessary to commit most violent crime.

Please name which pro-killing Drawers of Mohammed group is getting tax-exempt status.

I not sure if I am reading this right but it seems that you are more than 3 times more likely to be murdered in USA than UK.

So again, fewer nut jobs with weapons ('criminals' or not) fewer deaths IMO.

It's not really an issue as I would prefer to live here and I am sure that you prefer to live over there

Ahh, but can you correlate gun ownership with crime rates? The US has relatively high crime and high civilian gun ownership, Finland Israel and Canada have low crime and high gun ownership, Mexico and Columbia have high crime and low gun ownership. Crime correlates with certain factors, gun ownership isn't one of them. But like I said, I'm unlikely to undo decades of indoctrination with a few paragraphs here.

Your guns do not seem to be keeping your citizens safe.

But all those countries that you named have a higher homicide rate than us. So I still stick with our system.

Though maybe you could explain to me what a use a gun would be if someone throws a petrol bomb through her window while she is sleeping at night.

She'll also have to get used to checking her car for bombs every time she uses it.

Anyway, we're not talking about disturbing burglars here. We're talking about people with murder as a prime motive. (Though there may be a reward). People who may not be afraid to die to achieve their mission.

This feller cost us a fortune in protection. At least one person was very serious about getting him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_Rushdie

Edit:

http://atheism.about.com/library/misc/blrushdie.htm

The thing is, you can't prove that one way or the other; there is no control to test against and for all anyone knows this place could be a slaughterhouse if we weren't as armed as we are. Look at some of the African nations where ethnically based massacres were carried out with machetes and farm implements, an armed populace might have kept that sort of thing from happening.



OK, just don't come crying about not being allowed to legally defend yourself, or asking to be bailed out if your government ever decides that they don't actually need the consent of the governed since they have a monopoly on the tools of force. I'll take the higher crime, it's a small price to pay for self determinism and personal liberty.



I didn't just say buy a gun, I also said get a good alarm, and to me that means external motion detectors that trigger both floodlights and an internal warning chime. It's one thing to creep up on a house with ill intent knowing that the only immediate consequence might be having the cops called, it's quite another to approach an armed target that might open fire on you at the first sign of aggression.



Or parking it the alarmed garage...



Maybe so, but I don't think the threat level against this lady is quite the same as it was against Rushdie, and this being America and all she has options that UK citizen Rushdie didn't. Personally I would have wished that her employer would have stuck up for her, and that the government would have pitched in to protect it's citizens right to express her beliefs, rather than just saying telling her to run and hide. I heard the suggestion online that Obama should invite her to sleep on the White House couch until the Reaper drones catch up with the right individuals, but I don't see that happening.

I think the idea is good - it'd be great if more people followed it so that the threat would be dispersed.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8Cf6uTpAXw[/youtube]

Maybe some of this needs to fork a new thread.

It's true. Some of my family have armed guards when they live in dangerous regions. Just owning a gun is not enough you have to know how to use it. Just giving everyone a gun is a scary prospect. I know a number of people who are not criminals who can be alarming to be around. The idea of some of them owning a gun...

Is crime generally any worse in USA? Or are more people killed because fear of the other person having a weapon means people 'take no chances'. How many are killed in disputes with people who are not criminals. Maybe even family members.



Would she be allowed to carry her gun when she goes to the supermarket? Would it protect her from a stab in the back as she examines the vegetables?

Is someone going to guard her car every time she stops?



What options does she have that Rushdie didn't? I'll be pretty impressed by any that are better than the protection that Rushdie got.

The way I see it the threat to her could be worse than to Rushdie. It is not so much that she has broken some religious rule (though that is enough for some). It is more that she has deliberately set out to insult the whole religion and anyone who follows it. Basically, she has declared herself to be an enemy. Not just of terrorists or fundamentalists but any Muslim. And some might wonder if she would also be an enemy to anyone different to herself.

If she had a problem with terrorists or TV companies she should have aimed her protest against them instead of stirring up trouble against/among ordinary people. Many moderate people will now see her as an enemy much as others might see a Klansman or Neo Nazi as an enemy.

She already has free speech. It is already illegal to attack her. It is definitely illegal to murder her. What has her protest gained other than to stir people up on both sides.

More people joining the protest will not do much to disperse the threat. You have to expect people to go after leaders and/or instigators rather than followers.

True enough, but in this country buying a gun requires a lot of paperwork and a background check, we don't just hand the things out to everyone. Also, in most states getting a permit to carry a gun in public requires obtaining a certain number of hours of approved training in addition to an even more strenuous background check and submitting a set of fingerprints and paying anywhere from $60 to $300+. Most of the flaky people aren't willing to go through all that, and the extremely low crime rate among concealed carry permit holders bears that out.



I wont say it doesn't happen, but far less often than I think you imagine. There aren't too many botched self defense incidents being prosecuted as murders, even drawing a weapon exposes someone to an awful lot of liability. Domestic disputes are a whole different category, and a notoriously volatile one at that. I don't know the numbers off hands, but I think you'll find that fists, knives and whatever bludgeons are handy get involved far more often than firearms in domestic violence.



Yes, I live in the same city as her and she could easily acquire a CPL that would allow her to carry to the grocery store, or anywhere else for that matter. As for being stabbed in the back, I find that carrying a gun tends to make one extremely aware of the situation around you, including skulking Jihadis at the Safeway.



Do you know how to rig a car bomb? It requires at least some time alone with access to the interior of the car to install any but the simplest device, and someone who's at all security conscience is not going to park in an area where that is possible. It's also a fairly remote threat here in the US, the car bomb isn't exactly in vogue.



Shooting back.



He had resources, she has options, there is a difference.



No, she drew a cartoon mocking extremist elements of Islam, other people took her satirical idea and ran with it, she didn't create the site or any of the publicity surrounding it. You're coming perilously close to justifying the threats towards and persecution of this woman with what I put in bold, is that your intent?



Are you trying to say that the average Muslim can't tell the difference between an attack on them personally and an attack on extremists? Cause that's what I'm hearing here, and regardless neither of those groups are facing this level of credible threats of violence despite their rhetoric.



All SHE wanted was to make a point, other people thought it was a good one and decided to make it into a larger issue than she intended. What's resulted is a woman in hiding and another black eye for Islam; we like to call that unintended consequences.



Mass protest sends a message that violent threats will not be effective in silencing dissent.

I don't share your confidence that she is so safe. An attack on her is not good for anyone so better safe than sorry IMO.

During the IRA campaign we had to check beneath cars for bombs even though they were parked in an enclosed and guarded car park. I don't know how they were made but I guess they just attached to the underside and activated by remote control.
If anything I guess that the IRA would be easier to deal with as they did not use suicide bombers.

I am not justifying it at all just pointing out how many people will see it.



I am not a Muslim but I would say that yes I would see it as an attack on 'average' Muslims. She could draw jokes about Bin Laden, Ahmadinejad, Al Qaeda, the Taliban etc as much as she likes but this was targeted pretty much at any one who follows Islam.
Even many Muslims who wouldn't consider it a great crime to portray the profit would consider this an attack.
The point being that after the Denmark events people know how offensive this is to so many ordinary (non terrorist) people yet she still used this approach to make her protest.

Basically this comes across as we can p*** all over you as much as we like and you just have to take it.



Mass protest also sends the message that a large number of people are against Muslims and plays into the hands of extremist recruiters on both side.

Maybe you don't think that there is any threat but many don't agree. Often the attackers so ignorant they couldn't even tell a Muslim from a Sikh.

If you can't see this try http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=english+defence+league&aq=f

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIoX0wpt7dU&feature=related[/youtube]

She's cute. Wanna introduce me to her?

Europe in decline topic

I am studying the possible reasons for violence in European countries, and am sure that this problem goes back over a hundred years. If there is so much extremism on all sides, then it cannot be eradicated quickly. I just watched a video of some imam with an explanation of why the English Defence league is evil, but I saw and heard only another way of him espousing evil in his softly accented manner.

Hooligans and radical Islam. What a mess. Just more group garbage.