The Golden Rule

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ruveyn
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31 Oct 2010, 6:50 am

The_Dude wrote:

How about, "Love your neighbor as yourself" Leviticus 19:18

.

-as- yourself, not more than yourself. That puts everyone on an equal footing. No other is more deserving of love from you than you, yourself, is.

In concrete terms it means having the same respect for the life and property of your neighbor as you have for your own life and property. Which is consistent with the JGR (Jewish Golden Rule) and not doing to other folks what you would not want done to you.

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Sand
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31 Oct 2010, 7:04 am

ruveyn wrote:

The_Dude wrote:

How about, "Love your neighbor as yourself" Leviticus 19:18

.

Some people, surfeited with greed and selfishness, are wise enough to hate themselves. That makes for an interesting social situation.

ruveyn
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31 Oct 2010, 7:05 am

Sand wrote:

Some people, surfeited with greed and selfishness, are wise enough to hate themselves. That makes for an interesting social situation.

Why should they hate themselves. As long as they are even handed in their moral judgement, who or what is harmed?

Besides, a rationally selfish person would not want to take from another what he has not just claim upon.

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Sand
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31 Oct 2010, 7:07 am

ruveyn wrote:

Sand wrote:

Some people, surfeited with greed and selfishness, are wise enough to hate themselves. That makes for an interesting social situation.

Since a rationally selfish person is the rarest human in the world, we are stuck with the mess we are in.

ruveyn
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31 Oct 2010, 7:08 am

Sand wrote:

Since a rationally selfish person is the rarest human in the world, we are stuck with the mess we are in.

Isn't that just the case.

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leejosepho
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31 Oct 2010, 8:58 am

ruveyn wrote:

A rationally selfish person works on behalf of his interest but has appropriate respect for the life and and property of others ...

... thereby loving (thinking about and doing for) others as for oneself ...

ruveyn wrote:

an altruist or self-sacrificer works and suffers for the sake of others and subordinates his own interests for the sake of others.

... just as s/he would have others do for himself or herself.

There really is no difference there other than in the eye of the casual observer.

Sand wrote:

Some people, surfeited with greed and selfishness, are wise enough to hate themselves.

Hating things *about* oneself is a different matter, yet even "self hate" does not conflict with this commandment about action (and not about emotion).

The idea here is simply to think of and do for (love) others to the same degree we think of and do for (love) ourselves, and with the matter of any actual expression of hatred toward anyone being covered elsewhere.

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ruveyn
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31 Oct 2010, 11:21 am

leejosepho wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

A rationally selfish person works on behalf of his interest but has appropriate respect for the life and and property of others ...

... thereby loving (thinking about and doing for) others as for oneself ...

ruveyn wrote:

an altruist or self-sacrificer works and suffers for the sake of others and subordinates his own interests for the sake of others.

... just as s/he would have others do for himself or herself.

There really is no difference there other than in the eye of the casual observer.

Sand wrote:

Some people, surfeited with greed and selfishness, are wise enough to hate themselves.

You miss the point. A selfish person puts himself (and those dear to him) first and others second, but he constrains himself with regard for the life and property of others. An altruistic self sacrificer puts others first. It is a matter of priorities. There priorities of a selfish person differ from those of an altruist.

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leejosepho
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31 Oct 2010, 11:35 am

ruveyn wrote:

A selfish person puts ... others second, but he constrains himself with regard for the life and property of others.

You had first said this:

ruveyn wrote:

... but has appropriate respect for the life and and property of others ...

It seems you keep changing your presentations ...

ruveyn wrote:

An altruistic self sacrificer ...

... including adding "self-sacrificer" to altruism even thought both the one who "... has appropriate respect for the life and and property of others ..." and the altruist might occasionally do something at his or her own expense.

But in any case, the so-called "Golden Rule" is about thinking of others just as surely as we already think of ourselves, and our personal motives for doing so and/or our priorities *in* (or while) doing so are different (although certainly related) matters.

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JetLag
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31 Oct 2010, 5:39 pm

Sand wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

The_Dude wrote:

How about, "Love your neighbor as yourself" Leviticus 19:18

.

Some people, surfeited with greed and selfishness, are wise enough to hate themselves. That makes for an interesting social situation.

I don't think that the people who heard Jesus' Sermon on the mount took the Golden Rule as an endorsement of greed and selfishness, since they also heard in the same sermon: “Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent?” (Matthew 7:9-10); and "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy" (Mathew 5:7).

I think that the Golden Rule is basically a practical means for a an ordinary person with ordinary common sense to decide how to treat others. It's basically a one-sided rule in that people are to give of themselves without expecting anything in return.

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auntblabby
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01 Nov 2010, 1:30 am

JetLag wrote:

I don't think that the people who heard Jesus' Sermon on the mount took the Golden Rule as an endorsement of greed and selfishness, since they also heard in the same sermon: “Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent?” (Matthew 7:9-10); and "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy" (Mathew 5:7). I think that the Golden Rule is basically a practical means for a an ordinary person with ordinary common sense to decide how to treat others. It's basically a one-sided rule in that people are to give of themselves without expecting anything in return.

the problem with expecting anything in return, is that everybody else expects something in return as well, IOW it is a zero-sum game that results in zero progress in human spiritual evolution. somebody has to pay it forward. where would we all be without charity happening somewhere in our lives, awares or unawares?

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01 Nov 2010, 3:07 am

Altruism has destroyed our civilization.

We decided to "help the poor" so we gave them money to have many many illegitimate children with crack whore mothers.

On a world scale we have "overpopulation". All first world countries have a sharply declining population.

It is only the "third world countries" that are bursting at the seams. And why is this? Because we give them billions of dollars of food and medical aid every year.

There were "starving Nigerians" 20 years ago and now there are TWICE as many people starving thanks to us "saving the children".

And our answer now is that we must bring in millions of people to our countries. Stone age people who have never seen a flush toilet or worn shoes. Who came from a society where rape is normal and murder is nothing.

Sand
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01 Nov 2010, 3:41 am

Wombat wrote:

How disgusting. Much better to live in the States where murder is unknown and rape never happens and any starving children are quickly and mercifully shot and made into cat food so that their condition never embarrasses the bulk of people who are rich and fat and happy.

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01 Nov 2010, 4:26 am

Wombat wrote:

Even an African economist have pointed out how the altruism mentality is ruining Africa itself:
Dambisa Moyo: Cut off Aid to Africa

Defenders of blind altruism simply ignore the existing problem (ie the worsening of poverty despite their philosophy in action), resort to calling aid-critics name, and fall back to strawman argument. You are neither making your position more convincing, nor offering better alternatives.

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01 Nov 2010, 6:38 am

bloodshot wrote:

Wombat wrote:

That should clear everybody's conscience perfectly. Let 'em die.

leejosepho
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01 Nov 2010, 7:56 am

Wombat wrote:

Altruism has destroyed our civilization.

We decided to "help the poor" so we gave them money ...

That is welfare or whatever, not altruism.

It is not possible for altruism to cause harm.

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ruveyn
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01 Nov 2010, 8:20 am

leejosepho wrote:

Wombat wrote:

Altruism has destroyed our civilization.

We decided to "help the poor" so we gave them money ...

That is welfare or whatever, not altruism.

It is not possible for altruism to cause harm.

Think of Mother Teresa and the minds she has destroyed. And how much did she really help, teaching young Indian women to suck pus out of boils.

ruveyn

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