What Would Fascism Look Like in America Today?

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Orwell
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01 Nov 2010, 10:31 pm

NeantHumain wrote:

Some aspects of Nazism and Italian Fascism were tied to the innovations, reactions, prejudices, and concerns of their place and era. I think the fascist spirit would look somewhat different in the United States in 2010.

Scapegoating: Targets of scapegoating would be less the Jews and Bolsheviks and more the Muslims, gay people, and the "liberal elite."
Aggressive nationalism: Instead of a need to expand in imperial conquest, we'll see a desire to defend military spending to "support our troops" and fight "the war on terror."
A contempt for democracy: We'll see claims that direct election of senators is a bad idea.

So fascism looks like the Republican Party?

Yeah, that's not any more helpful or justified than right-wingers calling the Democrats socialist. The "scapegoating" done by the Right is, to my mind, unacceptable, but it does not even compare to the horrors of the Holocaust and other fascist purges. I believe the neoconservative approach to foreign policy is counterproductive, but it is not equivalent to attempts at world domination and total subjugation of one's neighbors. Some difference of opinion in the precise organization of our representative government is absolutely nothing like attempts to overthrow the republic and rule by military junta.

Is it possible to have a rational discussion between the center-left and the center-right? I mean, it's not as though American politics is really that terribly polarized in terms of actual beliefs held. In the states where fascism arose, you had significant groups pushing for political beliefs all across the spectrum—from monarchy to democracy to communist workers' state to fascist military dictatorship. Here in America, both major parties are basically centrist and agree on almost all their core principles. Why must the rhetoric be so exaggerated?

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skafather84
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01 Nov 2010, 10:39 pm

Orwell wrote:

but it does not even compare to the horrors of the Holocaust and other fascist purges.

Although it's outsourced, the torture that we enact against the muslims is every bit as disgusting.

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Orwell
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01 Nov 2010, 10:41 pm

skafather84 wrote:

Orwell wrote:

but it does not even compare to the horrors of the Holocaust and other fascist purges.

Although it's outsourced, the torture that we enact against the muslims is every bit as disgusting.

No, it is not. It is deeply wrong, and it needs to be ended and those responsible brought to justice, but it is not the same thing as the systematic genocidal campaign that was waged by the Nazis.

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Jacoby
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01 Nov 2010, 10:43 pm

skafather84 wrote:

Orwell wrote:

but it does not even compare to the horrors of the Holocaust and other fascist purges.

Although it's outsourced, the torture that we enact against the muslims is every bit as disgusting.

The kind that is still being outsourced by Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid? They're all complacent in it.

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01 Nov 2010, 10:48 pm

Jacoby wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Orwell wrote:

but it does not even compare to the horrors of the Holocaust and other fascist purges.

Although it's outsourced, the torture that we enact against the muslims is every bit as disgusting.

The kind that is still being outsourced by Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid? They're all complacent in it.

I'm not saying they're any better. They're simply the illusion of choice but the true power and sway is with the "republicans".

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01 Nov 2010, 11:04 pm

skafather84 wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Orwell wrote:

but it does not even compare to the horrors of the Holocaust and other fascist purges.

Although it's outsourced, the torture that we enact against the muslims is every bit as disgusting.

The kind that is still being outsourced by Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid? They're all complacent in it.

I'm not saying they're any better. They're simply the illusion of choice but the true power and sway is with the "republicans".

I'm not sure what you're trying to say but last time I checked the Republican have been essentially powerless for the last 2 years so they have only themselves to blame for what has happened. If Obama wanted he could of ended all the wars and brought all the troops home like he promised he would. Honestly he probably could of ended don't ask don't tell too since he is the commander and chief of the armed forces.

I agree that the big government Neocons which plague the GOP are probably the closest thing to fascists but Democrats aren't much better. They're being purged tho, that's why the Tea Party is so exciting. The two decent principled democrats Feingold and Kucinich folded when they could of took a stand and they're probably on their way out in the wave year.

ruveyn
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02 Nov 2010, 12:14 am

Jacoby wrote:

I agree that the big government Neocons which plague the GOP are probably the closest thing to fascists but Democrats aren't much better. They're being purged tho, that's why the Tea Party is so exciting. The two decent principled democrats Feingold and Kucinich folded when they could of took a stand and they're probably on their way out in the wave year.

To some extent the Tea Part is the crei de cour of the Independent voters. They are mightily peeved at the Democrats.

ruveyn

Sand
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02 Nov 2010, 4:22 am

ruveyn wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

To some extent the Tea Part is the crei de cour of the Independent voters. They are mightily peeved at the Democrats.

ruveyn

It seems you're in congenial company.

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02 Nov 2010, 5:28 am

NeantHumain wrote:

Scapegoating: Targets of scapegoating would be less the Jews and Bolsheviks and more the Muslims, gay people, and the "liberal elite."
Aggressive nationalism: Instead of a need to expand in imperial conquest, we'll see a desire to defend military spending to "support our troops" and fight "the war on terror."
A contempt for democracy: We'll see claims that direct election of senators is a bad idea.

I'm just curious, of those three items listed, which rank, and where, on your personal list of concerns?

I ask as generally I find that when people start bandying about the term, "fascism" what they are really doing is simply labeling their own specific bullet points of concern that they can conveniently identify as being found in historical instances of fascist states.

The US is no more fascist than it is socialist--though it does have weak versions of some elements of each.

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02 Nov 2010, 9:01 am

NeantHumain wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

So while we are funding cream puffs for the cripples, our bridges will collapse.

I find this kind of rhetoric offensive. In my Asperger's group, we have a woman who has a neurodegenerative disease and is now blind because of it. People generally don't collect disability because they want to live blithely, sucking from the public teat. She actually works very hard to cope with this disability and does not like to rely on hand-outs.

+1

My hubby's a member of the crips (no, not the gang) and all he gets is a parking tag. The overwhelming majority of disabled people try their hardest to be productive citizens. It's not their fault that in certain instances they become powerless. Picking on disabled people is pretty low.

ruveyn
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02 Nov 2010, 9:04 am

Sand wrote:

It seems you're in congenial company.

Both congenial and honorable.

ruveyn

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02 Nov 2010, 9:07 am

number5 wrote:

I take it that the word "cripple" is now on the Forbidden, Politically Incorrect Word list?

And I don't pick on them. I actually help blind folks and I do it gratis. What have you done for suffering humanity lately?

I just think it is more important to fix our bridges (which are falling down) and our roads (which are falling apart). That is something the government is in a position to do since it has the power to tax. Providing crutches and treats for the lame is something best done by private parties, not the government.

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Sand
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02 Nov 2010, 9:46 am

ruveyn wrote:

number5 wrote:

ruveyn
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02 Nov 2010, 9:51 am

Sand wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

number5 wrote:

Why not the government? Why is private better than public? Here in Finland the government provides all the needs for the disabled and nobody finds it dismaying.

Because the people who man the government in the United States are not competent to run a lemonade stand at a profit. The people who make policy and run the burocracy are hacks, slugs, worms and just sh*t stupid.

Maybe you Finns are smarter than us United Stateseans. In the U.S. the brightest and the best go into the private sector.

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skafather84
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02 Nov 2010, 10:05 am

Jacoby wrote:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say but last time I checked the Republican have been essentially powerless for the last 2 years

You're never powerless when you control the media.

skafather84
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02 Nov 2010, 10:09 am

ruveyn wrote:

Maybe you Finns are smarter than us United Stateseans. In the U.S. the brightest and the best go into the private sector.

I think what Sand is saying is that they have the way to fix that problem and also fix the problems with helping disabled and whatnot.

And if they're smarter, it's because they have a better education system which, again, is publicly funded and not pushed to be cut and underfunded and screws over the students.

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