Why leftist hate economics so much?

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Master_Pedant
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07 Nov 2010, 1:13 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

You do know that the guy in my profile picture is a leftwing economist, right?

The proper question for a right-libertopian propogandist such as yourself should be "why is it that all economists who don't base their models on demonstrably wrong assumption tend to be more leftwing?"

I don't really know how to frame your question, or whether it is correct, or how you intend to judge it as correct. You know that both sides criticize the other as having demonstrably wrong assumptions, right?

But a lot of Post-Keynesian economists place a lot more empthasis on actually existing human pscyhology as opposed to the oversimplifications of neoclassical economists.

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LKL
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07 Nov 2010, 1:24 am

psychohist wrote:

LKL wrote:

Heard the phrase, "We're all Keynesians now" since the collapse?

Noticed how we've had virtually no recovery as a result?

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/ ... ulus-work/
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2 ... 0_CV_N.htm
http://www.forbes.com/2009/12/03/tax-cu ... tlett.html

It was far from perfect, but it was better than nothing.

Awesomelyglorious
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07 Nov 2010, 1:28 am

Master_Pedant wrote:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

But a lot of Post-Keynesian economists place a lot more empthasis on actually existing human pscyhology as opposed to the oversimplifications of neoclassical economists.

But there aren't a lot of postkeynesian economists. The vast majority of economists, both left and right, are neoclassical economists. On the far right, there are the Austrians, and they feel a bit less threatened by looser psychological assumptions.

parrow
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07 Nov 2010, 1:37 am

For some I find they really think that if they just believe hard enough that anything can be true.

For example I know a few who think that the government should just make all heath-care unlimited and free for everyone. No amount of explanations of basic principles of supply and demand can change their minds because no matter what you say, the still simply believe it should be.

Then I tell that I wish healthcare was free and unlimited for all too. And I also wish I could turn into a butterfly and fly away. But I'm smart enough to know that no matter how much I wish I could turn into a butterfly and fly away, if I jump off a building I will still go splat and die. And the same is true for free healthcare for all. Then it's usually followed by them resorting to name-calling,

Last edited by parrow on 07 Nov 2010, 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

marshall
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07 Nov 2010, 1:38 am

LibertarianAS wrote:

LKL wrote:

Ever heard of Keynes? <-link

Heard the phrase, "We're all Keynesians now" since the collapse?

Keynas,like Marx, was wrong in basically EVERYTHING

the only true form of economics is AUSTRIAN ECONOMICS

Read Von Mises
Read Hayek

The problem with Austrian economics that it is based entirely on qualitative intuitive reasoning and isn't really backed by empirical evidence or mathematical rigor. I wouldn't have as much of a problem with this as intuitive models are a good tool for understanding systems. The problem is that more modern economists have provided plenty of counter-arguments and empirical evidence against Austrian economic theories, yet Austrian economists still cling to a rigid orthodoxy of thought.

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07 Nov 2010, 1:44 am

parrow wrote:

Can explain why healthcare costs in countries like Canada are a fraction of the cost for the exact same service?

Master_Pedant
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07 Nov 2010, 1:48 am

marshall wrote:

parrow wrote:

Can explain why healthcare costs in countries like Canada are a fraction of the cost for the exact same service?

No use trying. While the leftist economists uses specifics, arguments, and data to make their case the right-libertarians feel perfectly free to cite introductory, oversimplified econommics textbooks from 40 or so years ago to "prove" their prejudices are correct.

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Last edited by Master_Pedant on 07 Nov 2010, 2:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

Master_Pedant
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07 Nov 2010, 1:55 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

But a lot of Post-Keynesian economists place a lot more empthasis on actually existing human pscyhology as opposed to the oversimplifications of neoclassical economists.

However, conversely, Austrians have also pretty much given up on empirically testing their models.

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Orwell
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07 Nov 2010, 2:10 am

LibertarianAS wrote:

I have not exact data but it is simple common sense: except some wacko(hint: Krugman) the greater majority of economists are far-right ultra-libertarian freedom-lover...i don't believe that you will find a simple obamacomunist above ECON 101

That is false. A large majority of professional economists are liberals/Democrats. They are, on average, somewhat less liberal than, say, sociologists, but they are still much more liberal than the US population at large.

"I have not exact data" meaning: you are not reasoning from empiricism, or even checking your conclusions against reality. In short, you are following the same failed epistemology of the ancient Greeks which ret*d scientific progress for several millennia.

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Liberals hate economics science,they believe it is a "Bourgeoisie" pseudo- science

Economics is not a science, and if you understood the ideas of the Austrian school to which you claim to adhere, you would never make such a claim. The Austrians claim that economics cannot be scientific.

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They hate freedom

*snorts*

Right, anyone with different political views from yours can only be motivated by pure unadulterated evil.

Quote:

ALL world problems can be resolved in 3 moves:

Distrust anyone offering simple solutions to complex problems. It generally means they are full of crap.

Quote:

the only true form of economics is AUSTRIAN ECONOMICS

You realize that the Austrian school of thought isn't even within the mainstream of economics today, right?

Master_Pedant wrote:

However, conversely, Austrians have also pretty much given up on empirically testing their models.

Not "given up." They've never wanted to empirically test their models. They support an a priori epistemology, which stands in direct opposition to the rational empiricism of neoclassical economics and the natural sciences.

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Master_Pedant
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07 Nov 2010, 2:45 am

LibertarianAS wrote:

This is by far the funniest unsupported assertion I've ever seen uttered, mainly because Econ 101 is where the simplest "perfect competition" models of the economy are presented. You know, those models where there aren't any oligopolies and where the economy is self-equilibrating. When you get to higher levels, the oversimplifying assumptions are eased and economics becomes more compatible with left-leaning reality.

Orwell wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

However, conversely, Austrians have also pretty much given up on empirically testing their models.

Let me rephrase my statement. Austrians gave up on empirically testing their models before they even started.

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marshall
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07 Nov 2010, 2:49 am

Orwell wrote:

Quote:

ALL world problems can be resolved in 3 moves:

Distrust anyone offering simple solutions to complex problems. It generally means they are full of crap.

Quote:

the only true form of economics is AUSTRIAN ECONOMICS

You realize that the Austrian school of thought isn't even within the mainstream of economics today, right?

Master_Pedant wrote:

However, conversely, Austrians have also pretty much given up on empirically testing their models.

The main problem is they don't even attempt to address logical criticisms and empirical arguments against their theory. It would be like modern physicists completely rejecting the theory of relativity in favor of Newtonian mechanics despite evidence that Newtonian mechanics doesn't apply in many settings.

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07 Nov 2010, 3:32 am

marshall wrote:

In terms of logical criticisms, they aren't so bad, although they refuse to really discuss their axiom set and why it might not be the most appropriate for modeling the economy (though they claim not to be interested in models anyways, hating mathematics as they do). I think in some cases they just end up begging the question, since they seem to take totally free markets as an axiom.

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skafather84
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07 Nov 2010, 4:42 am

LibertarianAS wrote:

1)implement a flat fair 3% income taxes

This is a big reason why I think libertarians and conservatives hate economics more than any leftists. They think that an overly simplistic solution can actually be effective on a large scale with a massively built-in infrastructure. It's like a basic rejection of mathematics or ignorance about the social impact of various government programs.

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skafather84
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07 Nov 2010, 4:46 am

LibertarianAS wrote:

the only true form of economics is AUSTRIAN ECONOMICS

You really are clueless about how monetary policy works since 1913, aren't you? Do you have any idea why fiat money was considered better than commodities based economies? Do you realize how much even starting to attempt Austrian economics would destroy our currency and the global market?

It's all cute utopian ideals until you actually work in the real life matters of where we are in our country and in global economics and how much of our society relies on government money and the fiat system being run properly.

parrow
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07 Nov 2010, 4:50 am

marshall wrote:

Can explain why healthcare costs in countries like Canada are a fraction of the cost for the exact same service?

Oh, it's real easy to make healthcare cheap, just don't provide services. Why do Canada's government officials come to the USA for heath care? This is not exacly a conservative news service.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/02/danny-williams-canadian-o_n_446481.html

Oh yea, and hire crappy employees so they get service like this.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt141908.html

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07 Nov 2010, 5:15 am

Even my favourite left-wing site admits the cold hard truth:

Most Progressives and Liberals Fail to Grasp Basic Economic Concepts

I think it has to do with the leftists' general dislike of reality - their love for "humanity" overrides how reality really functions.

At the same time, most Austrian economics only exist in theory. We need to see more of them in practice.

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