The latest Wikileaks drop

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skafather84
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29 Nov 2010, 12:54 am

Orwell wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Orwell wrote:

I differ from Ska in not being all that enamored with democracy, mother f***ing or otherwise. But I still think any government has to be open and accountable.

Meh...republic or democratic. I'd prefer something a little more directly representative to match the transparency but a republic does help with some of the flaws.

Oh no, you have me all wrong. I'm not one of those silly right-wingers saying "We're a REPUBLIC, not a Democracy" (as if any of them understand what the functional difference would be, or that those two terms are not mutually exclusive). I'd much prefer enlightened despotism. Bring on the benevolent dictators, and LONG LIVE THE KING!

Oh yeah....you're into the whole unilateral movement thing. Because it worked out so well with Bush 1.7.

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skafather84
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29 Nov 2010, 12:57 am

skafather84 wrote:

Orwell wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Orwell wrote:

I differ from Ska in not being all that enamored with democracy, mother f***ing or otherwise. But I still think any government has to be open and accountable.

Meh...republic or democratic. I'd prefer something a little more directly representative to match the transparency but a republic does help with some of the flaws.

Oh yeah....you're into the whole unilateral movement thing. Because it worked out so well with Bush 1.7.

By the way, the point with this is more how quickly one person calling the show can go wrong very quickly rather than saying that Bush was necessarily viewed as enlightened in any circles. One person calling the shots means a lot more decisions made a lot quicker without as much consultation and consideration.

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29 Nov 2010, 12:59 am

skafather84 wrote:

The main problem is that somebody can appear enlightened until actually gaining the dictatorship. The Committe for Public Safety is a testament to the flaws in enlightened oligarchy, I cannot help but imagine that enlightened autocracy would be worse.

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skafather84
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29 Nov 2010, 1:02 am

Master_Pedant wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

Any truly enlightened person avoids such positions of vast power. Normally, only the vastly damaged gravitate toward such power.

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29 Nov 2010, 2:03 am

Master_Pedant wrote:

Orwell wrote:

And what happens when a given despot turns out to be not so enlightened after all?

Their advisors, members of the civil service, and other politically influential people reduce the amount of damage they can do, and if things get too out of hand eliminate the monarch (the old way was by assassination, but we can be more civilized and just force abdication). The notion of total autocracy is mostly a myth, as very few rulers historically have actually weilded absolute power. It is not, as Ska suggested, "one person calling the shots."

Quote:

I personally prefer a farily democratic government nevertheless with a somewhat politically independent and technocratic civil service and broad application of industrial democracy (extensive use of workers cooperatives, Saxon Model industrial relations, etc). I recognize that a "pure democracy" (as with most "pure" things) is impossible.

The civil service you suggest is the most important thing. A truly independent civil service, not only from politics but from private entities that could benefit by influencing them, is essential. Actually, they are the ones who do most of the real work of the government in any functional system. For the most part, I would prefer that politics cease and administrative functions continue to be handled by competent civil servants. A monarchy, oligarchy, or similar simple political system would provide more stability and take politics out of the public sphere, allowing the government to function without the constant fighting, re-shuffling, and re-arrangement of priorities.

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Master_Pedant
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29 Nov 2010, 2:10 am

Orwell wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

Orwell wrote:

And what happens when a given despot turns out to be not so enlightened after all?

Quote:

The main problem with making the civil service absolutely independent as that it shelters them from the reality of the majority of the people. But I would argue that in most polyarchic, Western states senior civil servants have a lot more power than electioneers pretend they do. The main problem, particularly in the US, is that the senior civil service is a bit too close to private power.

But I do think there are problems when a civil service becomes too politicized, so it's really about finding some sort of balance between insularity and shamless pandering.

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Last edited by Master_Pedant on 29 Nov 2010, 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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29 Nov 2010, 2:17 am

Master_Pedant wrote:

The main problem with making the civil service absolutely independent as that it shelters them from the reality of the people.

If they aren't independent, you get massive incompetence and corruption. Pick your poison. I'm imagining a system where the tasks of government are largely decided*, and the civil service is merely handling the administrative details of keeping everything running.

Quote:

The main problem, particularly in the US, is that the senior civil service is a bit to close too private power.

This is called the "revolving door" and has been a major factor in all the high-profile regulatory failures (and especially industrial disasters) for many years.

*Seriously, the most contentious political issue in America right now is a 4% difference in the top marginal tax rate. There are relatively few issues where we still have major decisions on how the system should be structured, so the whole apparatus of representative government in Congress and the Presidency seems a bit superfluous.

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Master_Pedant
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29 Nov 2010, 2:19 am

Orwell wrote:

Master_Pedant wrote:

The main problem with making the civil service absolutely independent as that it shelters them from the reality of the people.

Quote:

The main problem, particularly in the US, is that the senior civil service is a bit to close too private power.

Well, I'd prefer a multipartisan system with a wider overton window and more mass participation (and education) as well as a different voting system - ideally, the Single Transferable Vote that worked so very well in the "MOST STRIDENT ATHEIST" contest.

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DentArthurDent
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29 Nov 2010, 3:26 am

SuperApsie wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

It seems like a combination of a confirmation of the empire actions that most of us here assume the country does and schoolyard gossip.

I could not have said it better. Fascinating and pathetic at the same time.

Agreed, except I would replace "empire" with either imperialist or neo colonialist, but that would give Orwell cause to flame me so I won't :wink:

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29 Nov 2010, 3:56 am

skafather84 wrote:

John_Browning wrote:

I just hope that the people behind wikileaks gets on the bad side of the CIA or the Mossad sometime soon. :twisted:

f**k that, I like knowing what's actually going on with my government rather than the lying and the bullshitting. I know they're bullshitting me and it's f***ing insulting and it destroys the ability to democratically decide given that there's enough morons who believe the propaganda without realizing it's all lies.

I want an actual god damned mother f***ing democracy. Not some dog and pony show BS.

"Like".

Maybe the CIA can get some illegal rendition going on, on top of their illegal DDoS attacks on the site?

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ikorack
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29 Nov 2010, 7:53 am

Isn't he from Europe? Why do people keep saying to charge him with treason?

SuperApsie
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29 Nov 2010, 8:08 am

ikorack wrote:

Isn't he from Europe? Why do people keep saying to charge him with treason?

He's from Australia, but you are right about the accusation, maybe some people have just lost sense of reality, maybe some never got one...

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29 Nov 2010, 9:04 am

ikorack wrote:

Isn't he from Europe? Why do people keep saying to charge him with treason?

They want Pfc Bradley Manning, a US intelligence analyst, to be charged with treason. He is a US citizen and is currently facing courtmarshal, which could result in about a 52-year prison sentence.

There have been assorted attempts to cause legal troubles for Julian Assange of Wikileaks though. At one point his passport was confiscated, leaving him trapped in one country. And now Sweden is pursuing dubious criminal charges against him.

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ruveyn
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29 Nov 2010, 10:41 am

I am wondering if some modern King Henry II has not said: Will not someone dispose of this tempestuous blogger?

ruveyn

skafather84
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29 Nov 2010, 10:50 am

ruveyn wrote:

I am wondering if some modern King Henry II has not said: Will not someone dispose of this tempestuous blogger?

ruveyn

I'm pretty sure that's why he's facing rape charges despite lack of sufficient evidence to charge most any other person. And why his passports were revoked. And why he and other Wikileaks workers have been tailed and harassed by CIA agents.

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29 Nov 2010, 11:26 am

Come to think of it, wasn't President Obama's campaign pledge to provide unparalleled open-ness, honesty and transparency in government? The wikileaker is actually fulfilling our president's campaign pledge, and I salute him for that.

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