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TheBicyclingGuitarist
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11 Dec 2010, 6:11 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Hm. My impulse is to say that it is still inaccurate to class us as "fish." The various fish lineages have continued to evolve after our line diverged from it. We just have to go a little farther down their branch to find the appropriate spot to cut off a monophyletic "fish" group.

Nope. I think human beings are fish.


Well, we are not descended from modern fish. However, modern fish and humans share a common ancestor that was a fish, so yes, we ARE still fish, highly derived fish, but fish nonetheless. I liked what MONKEY said

MONKEY wrote:
So when some creationist comes out with "so are you saying I'm related to a monkayy??" you could just say "yes and everything else on earth, you stupid fish."


An excellent recent book about this was written by Neil Shubin. He is the guy who discovered Tiktaalik, a transitional form between fish and tetrapods that was found exactly where it would be expected to be found in the geologic record if evolution were true. The book is called Your Inner Fish. Besides telling how he found this fossil, Shubin writes of many ways our fish ancestry manifests and affects our lives still today.


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11 Dec 2010, 6:22 pm

TheBicyclingGuitarist wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Hm. My impulse is to say that it is still inaccurate to class us as "fish." The various fish lineages have continued to evolve after our line diverged from it. We just have to go a little farther down their branch to find the appropriate spot to cut off a monophyletic "fish" group.

Nope. I think human beings are fish.


Well, we are not descended from modern fish. However, modern fish and humans share a common ancestor that was a fish, so yes, we ARE still fish, highly derived fish, but fish nonetheless. I liked what MONKEY said

See, that's not necessarily true. We are not "highly derived bacteria." If you look at the cladistics, the eubacteria form a separate lineage to the eukarya, so even though our ancient ancestors at one point were single-celled "prokaryotes," we are still not "highly derived bacteria." Similar for the fish, I think. The reason we can be considered as part of the monkey group is that without including us the monkey group becomes parahyletic. It would have to be demonstrated that the fish group is paraphyletic if one excludes mammals and other terrestrial vertebrates. If all the things that you want to call "fish" can be put on the same branch of a cladogram and have that branch be separated from the branch leading to mammals and reptiles, then we aren't fish.

Gah, these discussions are so unwieldy without being able to draw pictures. I need a whiteboard.


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Master_Pedant
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11 Dec 2010, 6:35 pm

Orwell is right - sharing a common ancestor with something (let us say, Gorillas) doesn't make you a Gorilla. However, the question I want to know is whether the common ancestor of tetrapods and extant fish would be regarded as a "fish".


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11 Dec 2010, 7:00 pm

I had to read that Shubin book for a lower-level bio course. Know that "fish" is used in a loose colloquial sense there, not in any strict scientific meaning.

Master_Pedant wrote:
Orwell is right - sharing a common ancestor with something (let us say, Gorillas) doesn't make you a Gorilla. However, the question I want to know is whether the common ancestor of tetrapods and extant fish would be regarded as a "fish".

If we saw it today, we might well call it a "fish" without taking note of the developments that have occurred in the fish lineage. But then, we would also probably call our pre-endosymbiotic ancestors bacteria, even though what we now call bacteria split off from our lineage (and, importantly, went a separate way with their own novel developments) before that point.

I think the problem here is the sort of implicit assumption that most of us have—namely, that humans are the most "evolved" species, and that if we "evolved" from monkeys, the extant monkeys today are the same as our ancestors, rather than simply another line that split off and went in a different direction after some point.


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11 Dec 2010, 8:16 pm

Right.



TheBicyclingGuitarist
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11 Dec 2010, 8:20 pm

Orwell wrote:
I think the problem here is the sort of implicit assumption that most of us have—namely, that humans are the most "evolved" species, and that if we "evolved" from monkeys, the extant monkeys today are the same as our ancestors, rather than simply another line that split off and went in a different direction after some point.


That is a common misconception. An example is that scene in the movie Night at the Museum where the main guy is slapping the monkey and Teddy Roosevelt chastises him, saying "Who's evolved?" That viewpoint is probably accurate of the popular idea of evolution in Teddy Roosevelt's time as a ladder with humans at the top. Scientists understand now that the monkey is adapted to its environment just as humans adapted to their environment. In other words the monkey may be just as evolved as the human, maybe even more evolved!

On a related note, another scientific paper from recent years measured the number of mutations in human and chimp DNA since they had a common ancestor. Chimp DNA has had MORE mutations in the DNA than human DNA, so in a sense chimpanzees are MORE evolved than humans! Of course the mutations that made us human were obviously very significant ones even if not as numerous as the mutations that resulted in chimpanzees.


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TheBicyclingGuitarist
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11 Dec 2010, 8:27 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Orwell is right - sharing a common ancestor with something (let us say, Gorillas) doesn't make you a Gorilla. However, the question I want to know is whether the common ancestor of tetrapods and extant fish would be regarded as a "fish".


I never said that sharing a common ancestor with a gorilla makes one a gorilla. All gorillas are apes but not all apes are gorillas. Similarly, humans are apes, apes are monkeys, and monkeys are highly derived fish. While a "fishapod" such as Tiktaalik may not look like modern fishes, it is a fish according to how most people and scientists would define that term because of its anatomy and its environment. Now some creationists dismiss its importance in the fossil record, saying it is "just a fish." They are ignoring the many features of its anatomy that are intermediate between other fish and land animals including the fins turning into limbs, the wrist, the neck, and the shape of the skull, plus the fact that it was found in rocks of exactly the right age and type where one would expect to find such fossils if evolution happened.


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11 Dec 2010, 8:29 pm

Orwell wrote:
Hm. My impulse is to say that it is still inaccurate to class us as "fish." The various fish lineages have continued to evolve after our line diverged from it. We just have to go a little farther down their branch to find the appropriate spot to cut off a monophyletic "fish" group.

The human fetus has gills in the first stages of life in the womb. The womb contains the salt water. Our bodies are mostly salt water. We still have the same make up as the first stages of life. Our DNA contains elements that is universal to all life on earth.



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11 Dec 2010, 9:12 pm

Orwell wrote:
If we saw it today, we might well call it a "fish" without taking note of the developments that have occurred in the fish lineage. But then, we would also probably call our pre-endosymbiotic ancestors bacteria, even though what we now call bacteria split off from our lineage (and, importantly, went a separate way with their own novel developments) before that point.

I think the problem here is the sort of implicit assumption that most of us have—namely, that humans are the most "evolved" species, and that if we "evolved" from monkeys, the extant monkeys today are the same as our ancestors, rather than simply another line that split off and went in a different direction after some point.


From Wikipedia (judge as you may):

Wikipedia wrote:
The term "fish" most precisely describes any non-tetrapod craniate (i.e. an animal with a skull and in most cases a backbone) that has gills throughout life and whose limbs, if any, are in the shape of fins.[2] Unlike groupings such as birds or mammals, fish are not a single clade but a paraphyletic collection of taxa, including hagfishes, lampreys, sharks and rays, ray-finned fishes, coelacanths, and lungfishes.[3][4] Indeed, lungfishes and coelacanths are closer relatives of tetrapods (such as mammals, birds, amphibianss...) than of other fishes such as ray-finned fishes or sharks, so the last common ancestor of all fishes is also an ancestor to tetrapods. As paraphyletic groups are no longer recognised in modern systematic biology, the use of the term "fish" as a biological group must be avoided.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish#Diversity_of_fish

If "lung-fish" are included as "fish" then there is no reason why tetrapods shouldn't be classified likewise. You get a paraphyletic group otherwise.


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11 Dec 2010, 10:13 pm

OK, fair enough. So "fish" as conventionally defined are a paraphyletic group. It still does not necessarily follow that humans should be classified as fish.

Take this poorly-done ASCII phylogeny:


.--------------A
.
.-----------------B
.------|
.------*------------C
.
.-------------------D
.--------|
.-----------------------------E
.------------|
.-------------------------F
.

Let's say that the monophyletic group {D,E,F} includes all of the familiar tetrapods. Now, if we call {B,C} fishes but {A} is not called a fish, then {D,E,F} are not derived fish. If {A,B,C} are all fish, then so are {D,E,F}. My point was that if we look through the cladistics and find a junction like the one I labeled '*' then we can define branches from that point to be fish without pointing to all tetrapods as fish.

Otherwise, I think we need to ditch the "fish" terminology entirely, as it is usually understood to mean something relatively specific, but if the group referred to as "fish" is paraphyletic and filling in the gaps to make it monophyletic would cause it to include mammals, then we are instead talking about an extremely broad grouping of organisms. Thus, we have to cease using "fish" to refer to more specific groupings, and instead refer to each respective monophyletic group contained within the paraphyletic "fish" group by a more precise name (that is, come up with a new name for {A} and a new name for the group {B,C}).


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12 Dec 2010, 12:57 am

Orwell wrote:
OK, fair enough. So "fish" as conventionally defined are a paraphyletic group. It still does not necessarily follow that humans should be classified as fish.

Take this poorly-done ASCII phylogeny:


.--------------A
.
.-----------------B
.------|
.------*------------C
.
.-------------------D
.--------|
.-----------------------------E
.------------|
.-------------------------F
.

Let's say that the monophyletic group {D,E,F} includes all of the familiar tetrapods. Now, if we call {B,C} fishes but {A} is not called a fish, then {D,E,F} are not derived fish. If {A,B,C} are all fish, then so are {D,E,F}. My point was that if we look through the cladistics and find a junction like the one I labeled '*' then we can define branches from that point to be fish without pointing to all tetrapods as fish.

Otherwise, I think we need to ditch the "fish" terminology entirely, as it is usually understood to mean something relatively specific, but if the group referred to as "fish" is paraphyletic and filling in the gaps to make it monophyletic would cause it to include mammals, then we are instead talking about an extremely broad grouping of organisms. Thus, we have to cease using "fish" to refer to more specific groupings, and instead refer to each respective monophyletic group contained within the paraphyletic "fish" group by a more precise name (that is, come up with a new name for {A} and a new name for the group {B,C}).


I agree, kick-out "lungfish" or scrap the concept entirely as antiquidated. It's sociolinguistically absurd to classify lions as fish.


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12 Dec 2010, 1:17 am

Denying connections to bacteria, fish, other mammals, etc. must then be extended properly. If common DNA is to be thrown out the window and other relationships declared invalid then I am perfectly at home in looking hard at the massive viciousness, greed, stupidity and wild turmoil displayed in the human race in general and declaring myself as totally unconnected. I have no idea what I may be but I sure as hell have little if anything to do with that.



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12 Dec 2010, 2:54 am

This is quite profoundly troubling - all those times getting angry at News Anchors calling Chimpanzees "monkeys" are for nothing!


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12 Dec 2010, 3:45 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
This is quite profoundly troubling - all those times getting angry at News Anchors calling Chimpanzees "monkeys" are for nothing!


Not at all. Chimpanzees are furious.



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12 Dec 2010, 9:32 am

Master Pedant:

"It's sociolinguistically absurd" ??! !

Please expand. This is a side of sociolinguiistics I have not met.



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12 Dec 2010, 10:31 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
It's sociolinguistically absurd to classify lions as fish.

Perhaps the same for classing humans as monkeys? If monkeys are a paraphyletic group, simply including the great apes in order to make a monophyly isn't necessarily the best way of getting a well-defined category, because you now have a much larger group with broader classification than you want by the word. A better route may be to recognize the different branches of "monkeys" as distinct groups from each other, with the "old world" and "new world" monkeys being their separate monophyletic groups.

Sand—no one in this thread is denying a connection to those other organisms, but it is a question of correctly classifying organisms with a certain level of specificity.


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