Have most world leaders throughout history been sociopaths?

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ruveyn
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26 Dec 2010, 1:58 pm

pandabear wrote:
Would the soldiers who carry out the murdering also be classified as sociopaths?


No. They would be classified as loyal and obedient troops.

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Sand
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26 Dec 2010, 2:08 pm

ruveyn wrote:
pandabear wrote:
Would the soldiers who carry out the murdering also be classified as sociopaths?


No. They would be classified as loyal and obedient troops.

ruveyn


As many Germans at Nuremberg declared, they were only following orders.



ruveyn
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26 Dec 2010, 3:20 pm

Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
pandabear wrote:
Would the soldiers who carry out the murdering also be classified as sociopaths?


No. They would be classified as loyal and obedient troops.

ruveyn


As many Germans at Nuremberg declared, they were only following orders.


Do you know what happens to soldiers who don't follow orders, especially in wartime?

ruveyn



Sand
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26 Dec 2010, 7:05 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
pandabear wrote:
Would the soldiers who carry out the murdering also be classified as sociopaths?


No. They would be classified as loyal and obedient troops.

ruveyn


As many Germans at Nuremberg declared, they were only following orders.


Do you know what happens to soldiers who don't follow orders, especially in wartime?

ruveyn


They would not have been prosecuted at Nuremberg.

See http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/project ... ldman.html



ruveyn
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26 Dec 2010, 9:01 pm

Sand wrote:

They would not have been prosecuted at Nuremberg.

See http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/project ... ldman.html


You are being obtuse, or so it seems. Disobedient soldiers, in time of war, are either imprisoned, beaten or killed as long as the State whose army commands them exists and is in power.

By the Nuremberg was a show trial. Only 22 Narzis stood trial and their were thousands who deserved death. The Russians wanted to round up 50,000 Nazi and kill them summarily. The U.S. insisted on a show of "justice". At worst the Nuremberg trials were a joke and at best they exercised the justice of the Winners.

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Sand
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26 Dec 2010, 11:06 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:

They would not have been prosecuted at Nuremberg.

See http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/project ... ldman.html


Quote:
You are being obtuse, or so it seems. Disobedient soldiers, in time of war, are either imprisoned, beaten or killed as long as the State whose army commands them exists and is in power.

By the Nuremberg was a show trial. Only 22 Narzis stood trial and their were thousands who deserved death. The Russians wanted to round up 50,000 Nazi and kill them summarily. The U.S. insisted on a show of "justice". At worst the Nuremberg trials were a joke and at best they exercised the justice of the Winners.

ruveyn


You are demonstrably the most bloodthirsty human I have ever encountered. I find you totally disgusting. This, of course, is only a personal opinion.



Last edited by Sand on 27 Dec 2010, 12:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

Vexcalibur
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26 Dec 2010, 11:34 pm

Leading a whole country is very hard work with tons and tons of responsibility and a 100% chance you'll get blamed for all the country's problems. That's actually your main role as a country's leader, to be a good blame target. Well, let me list the two main things a good leader must do:
* Be good at being blamed for things.
* Be able to pull out an "everything is going well" speech (lie, lie like there's no tomorrow!)


So, sociopaths are basically the only kind of crazy people that would stand all the work and responsibility in the exchange of their ulterior motives and that can actually manipulate people like is needed.


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Kraichgauer
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27 Dec 2010, 3:23 am

There was a 19th century Italian statesman (whose name I'm afraid escapes me) who said something to the extent of:
"If I did for personal gain what I've done for my country, I would surely burn in hell."

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



zer0netgain
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27 Dec 2010, 8:32 am

JasonGone wrote:
i have always thought most "leaders" dictators and politicians come of as simply narcissistic.
my impression.


Narcissistic or Sociopath.

People drawn to power are drawn out of these two reasons more than anything else. They envision themselves worthy of "ruling" over others or simply desire to have power over others.

Makes a lot of sense of what government does when you look at politicians in this light.



Dox47
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27 Dec 2010, 1:55 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
Narcissistic or Sociopath.

People drawn to power are drawn out of these two reasons more than anything else. They envision themselves worthy of "ruling" over others or simply desire to have power over others.

Makes a lot of sense of what government does when you look at politicians in this light.


Don't forget simple good intentions, the most dangerous delusion of them all. No tyrant is quite as dangerous as the one who knows what's best for his subjects and does things for their own good. You might argue that falls under narcissism, but I don't think someone has to be pathological to fall victim to this kind of thinking.


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xenon13
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27 Dec 2010, 2:14 pm

Leaders who mindlessly carry out dogma can be most dangerous. The Earl Russell, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom in the 19th century comes to mind. Now that was a genocidal monster who killed in the name of his quack ideology.



Sand
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27 Dec 2010, 6:59 pm

Dox47 wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
Narcissistic or Sociopath.

People drawn to power are drawn out of these two reasons more than anything else. They envision themselves worthy of "ruling" over others or simply desire to have power over others.

Makes a lot of sense of what government does when you look at politicians in this light.


Don't forget simple good intentions, the most dangerous delusion of them all. No tyrant is quite as dangerous as the one who knows what's best for his subjects and does things for their own good. You might argue that falls under narcissism, but I don't think someone has to be pathological to fall victim to this kind of thinking.


On that theory leaders with bad intentions are therefor much preferable. The world seems to be doing quite well from that viewpoint.



NeantHumain
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28 Dec 2010, 10:01 am

Most people who are successful in leadership or management positions need to have the ability to influence people or at least get them to do things (so a typical middle manager may not be particularly charming or charismatic, but his or her authority within the organization causes subordinates to obey). Higher-up politicians and world leaders do, though, tend to need a little more charisma to be successful or at least the willingness to hire a public-relations firm to manufacture the right image. Manipulation, though, is not equivalent to positive influence, and this is something of a moral judgment. Manipulators count on keeping their victims in the dark about their true intentions and tend to exploit a person's weaknesses rather than trying to build them up in a positive way. A manipulator may prey on someone's loneliness, the victim's own greed, or even the victim's generosity (becomes a "weakness" when the giver is deceived). The manipulator is interested in their own gain and doesn't care about the impact on others. To some extent, though, intrigue is normal in politics and diplomacy and always has been: Opposition parties, other countries, and even the body public can be part ally and part enemy, and relationships are managed sometimes through deceit (as WikiLeaks has shown us). Spies, public-relations specialists, and campaign strategists, though, would tend to be the ones to specialize in this duplicity. Unlike Machiavellians, psychopaths have a compulsion to lie even where it doesn't make sense, though; they do it for the thrill or the feeling of power it gives them. Psychopaths will lie and play tricks just for fun, purposelessly; I don't think you'll find this sort of pathological lying in the average politician, who is more constrained and image conscious.

Relating to that purposeless lying, psychopaths tend to be highly impulsive and reckless. When they get angry or frustrated, they will lash out violently or throw a temper tantrum. You generally don't see this from world leaders (in public), but sometimes you hear that powerful politicians and CEOs have tempers behind closed doors. Relating to the impulsivity is a general and extreme fearlessness and sensation seeking. Psychopaths crave a very high level of physical sensation: extreme sports, drug use, sexual promiscuity, wild parties, risk taking, etc. Sometimes you also hear about powerful people living wild lives just below the public radar (and often not even below the radar for celebrities).

The most defining characteristic, though, of the psychopath is the complete lack of social emotions like empathy and guilt.



Idiotchief
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28 Dec 2010, 5:22 pm

Not as many as idealists. People who are willing to destroy humanity for their utopia.


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