What makes a good society?

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"Education doesn't matter. Most people won't care. They'll want their own happiness and that of their children(if they breed), not much further. Just try to educate them, and they won't really have it stick, unless they really want it. Even further, nobody can really understand the complexity of issues in society. Just having a BS is insufficient for that task. Even if one has a PhD, in a relevant field, it is not a given that one understands a lot of the issues at stake."

Thou art not far from the Kingdom.

What Kingdom is that?

Is there any evidence, factual or anecdotal that a good society has ever existed?

of heaven?

You're a very condescending person. You're calling my argument worthless, in a less than clever way, without really refuting my argument. You might as well have regressed to a preschool taunt like "what you said is complete caca; ner ner ner ner boo boo" The reason why I say empathy and humility are valuable traits within a society is I've seen the negative effects that the lack of these traits have in my personal life and in the larger picture. I've had stuff stolen by me from people I thought were my friends and seen how these large corporations, colluded with government, do. They feel they're more important than everyone else and have no problem with shipping jobs over seas to sweat shops and insulating their selves with government bail outs and golden parachutes. So yah, a little bit of empathy, being able to see things from the point of view of other people, would go a long way. The same goes for not seeing their selves as infallible. When someone steals something from you, whether its corporate lobbyists getting out tax dollars for their own selfish gain or someone stealing your Xbox, they think their selves far superior to other people.

I believe in an equal mix of Social responsibility and Individual responsibility. Sociopathic individuality is bad, but the kind of individuality that respects the right of other people to flourish to their full potential as individuals is a view that should be adopted. Case in point, I don't see how corporations paying workers in Indonesia less than 2 dollars a day for 12-16 hours of work for them to barely pay for their house and their food promotes self determinism. Society is ultimately made up of individuals and should be seen as such. We shouldn't have systems that restrict individuality, and there's a lot in government, social pressures, and big business that does this, A more live and let live approach would be a good thing.

Then how does one understand the joy of actually succeeding at something. Further if there is no competition how can an administration be competitent and how can there be an open debate.

People have the right to succeed or fail based on their own decisions. It is not Government's job to be a nanny.

Well that could theoretically be simulated by social glory or a sort of semi-pseudo mating rights set up where more productivity = more sex or mating rights of some sort. But the glory is both easier and less Grey area.

He said "relative" equality, not absolute. In other words, there'd still be competition and personal accomplishments and all that, but you wouldn't have orphans begging in the street like in Calcutta. Not everybody who espouses any type of social conscience is a Marxist-Leninist.

I don't know what makes a good society but I know that there is a difference.

Here in Australia right now there is massive flooding in large areas of the country.
What are the people doing? They are turning out in their thousands to fill and place sand bags.
Everyone with a truck is helping families to move their possessions to higher ground.

When there are bush fires or floods or cyclones or other disasters, the men come from everywhere to put their lives on the line for their community while the women are making food and setting up refugee centers in local halls and finding food and clothing for the people escaping the disaster.

Now let's look at Haiti. They had a major disaster. What did the locals do? Nothing. What have they done since then?
Nothing except b***h that the world in general should come in and solve their problems.

The one next door. Not the one on the top floor - that's a private club, you have to know someone to get in.

Unfortunately, that is the attitude of a lot of people. I hear a lot of "My kids are adults so why should I be paying for public education?" or "If people want a good education, they can go to a private school." But if we refuse to educate the general population we end up with a large uneducated population that is more likely to resort to crime and will not be able to contribute to the economy in the way that an educated public can. Refusing to pay for education is a false economy in that an uneducated population drains the economy more than the cost of educating people.

You say "Most people won't care." If nobody tries to have a strong educational system so people cannot see how a good education can benefit them, yes, they probably won't care. Is that a good reason to give up? I will agree that having a good educational system is a hard work. It requires a population that is willing to support it, parents who demand that their children apply themselves, and teachers who actually teach rather than just punching a clock and repeating the same lecture they gave 30 years earlier.

These issues are complex, but complex issues are built up from simple issues. Each person can address the issue up to the level of compexity they are willing to work at. If a majority of people took the position that a good educational system is worth paying for, no matter how complex the issue was, progress would be made. Instead, people say "it's too complex, nothing can be done. Let's just give up."

And then they complain that no one want's to learn.

Technically, that was a quote off awesomely glorious - but I did endorse it.

I would have worded it very differently.

I think you over-estimate the value of education. How does the average high school education help the average worker? All I see is a few courses that can do this, and y'know, if we just focused all resources on those courses, we could probably cut down high school to 1 year. (Btw, I am talking mostly about computer literacy and practical English skills, as well as speech, as that's all that will matter in the daily life of these people)

So, if you disagree, please tell me how education is supposed to in practice help most of these people? Give me specifics, and justify all of the education you think is important.


Well, even if you have a strong education system, most people STILL won't care. Even further, most people aren't that benefited from a good education anyway. The benefits are vastly overstated.

You have to recognize that I don't buy into the view of education you do. I see your view as highly mythological and far away from what is normal.


Umm.... that's not the complaint I am making. Complexity isn't the issue. Waste is the issue. This is a waste. It is not really relevant. Now, we can argue that education might be useful for putting everybody in a working position, sure. My original post wasn't addressing that. My original post was mostly rebutting your position on education in terms of how it is necessary that all these people have their training to think.

How would you have worded it?

Here is a perfect example of why I feel that a good education and the ability to think critically are very important to a good society.

According to a Time article from April 9, 2008 Haiti:



Time Article Link

Wombat assumes that there are no other differences between the situation in Haiti and the one in Australia other than laziness. But Australia is a relatively wealthy country where most people get enough to eat. In Haiti, much of the population is not getting enough to maintain adult weight, much less be able to do strenuous work.

Wombat: You need to go on a restricted calorie diet (cut it down to about 1600 calories per day to match the average Haitian diet) and then after a week, do some strenuous physical work - sandbagging or helping someone move, for example. Then come back and let us know how much work you were able to accomplish. (I did something like this a couple of months ago and going for a walk became rather difficult.)

What I'm trying to point out here, is that if you don't understand the situation, if you don't know any facts, how can you even make an intelligent assessment of the situation? There are many decisions that we make every day that rely on being able to draw a good, practical conclusion. Deciding who you will vote for or what meal will be better for your health, for example. I'm not saying everyone has to have a the highest education possible, but we will benefit from an informed populous that can see flaws in arguments before they are allowed to become flawed choices.

Oooh, wow, you're saying that the half a semester health class I took in high school is justification for the 4 years of high school that most people have to take?


What did Wombat say? He said he didn't know the difference between a good society and a bad society, not that "laziness is the difference", he could have referred to a large number of other qualities. Even further, no class is going to teach you the caloric intake of people from Haiti. Education can never give you all of the facts. As well, if a person doesn't WANT to be educated, as many people have no interest as is very rational for them, then they will not gain all of the "critical thinking" anyway. Heck, as it stands, most people are still going to be stuck agreeing with what they want to agree with, and disagreeing with what they want to disagree with.

I mean jagatai, it is clear that you like the idea of education, but PLEASE point out how this dream of yours will actually impact practice. High school or even college or even graduate school, wouldn't prevent you from making comments like the one Wombat just made, so please nail down that jello for us.