I no longer believe

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Philologos. My main point is that we are coming closer to the truth with the more knowledge we gain. For example. Each atomic model was incorrect. But each model was closer and closer to the one we accept today.
You are absolutely correct on the point that we have to keep changing our ideas.

Doesn't scripture say that all children under the age where they understand right from wrong go to heaven even if they aren't baptized?

Additionally, we do know that the Bible was put together during Constantine's reign and some scripture could have been lost or left out. Not saying the Bible isn't a holy book, just we may not have all of it.

There is supposedly no other way to heaven but through Jesus, that doesn't mean for instance that Jewish People can't go to heaven. For all we know Jesus appears before people when they die to explain to individuals he is indeed the Son of God and takes them to heaven. Seriously, just because people are priests, pastors, the Pope, Nuns, etc. does not mean they are supposed to be all-knowing, nor does it mean they should know everything about how God does things.

Tradition says that, but I'm not aware of any such proclamation in the actual Scriptures. Please cite book, chapter, and verse.


That seems like an ad-hoc addition with no scriptural basis, and in fact would contradict a number of passages. The Scripture seems pretty clear that only a small number of people will be saved.

Traditionally, dead children could only go to heaven if they had been baptized. Hence infant baptism.

Christianity is a weird religion. According to Christian theology a newborn human infant is damned from the instant he draws a breath.

ruveyn

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlBiLNN1NhQ[/youtube]

And literally, to scale, a deity who is so immensely large and powerful next to us to where the comparison is almost like a man standing next to a quirk or something else subatomic, the possibility of him being wrathful or jealous makes little or no sense - these things take necessity, these things generally take fear or vulnerability which he literally can't have. He has zero vulnerability to us, however we have almost certain vulnerability to each other no matter how well one can fight or how their way around strategic planning.


Same. At the very minimum their 'God' seemed to become removed or impossible. Some people tried to say "Oh, well...anyone who lives in a region who'd never heard the good news is saved but anyone who's heard of it or heard it and walked away is going to hell" - lol, that's much better... much like I'm going to hell for not believing in Zeus or not believing in Shiva, Vishnu, et al... to know something exists has no effect if your culture is dominated by other viewpoints and its a place where your parents, grandparents, and ancestors since time immemorial have believed - at that point your local faith is a way of life whereas whatever a stranger tells you is simply what a stranger tells you.

One of my other biggest headache was - I was and still am a really big music head. I liked music that was deep, riveting, explored epic and sometimes dark emotions. It was an above the world and larger than life set of feelings and still is today for me. That was something that always felt more like a talent or a blessing than a curse, and then I came to notice not only just how carbon copy and cookie cutter all the personalities around me were but additionally how intolerant they were of any deviation from very clean preppy dress, very clean and poppy music, ie. - I wasn't allowed to be what I saw as the best of myself, perhaps that's still true in the sense that for most of the world out there and perhaps many Christians their real God is actually conformity.

I swung atheist for many years after that, particularly after something of a failed attempt with Buddhism and then having the realization hit me perhaps around 20 or 21 that all of our illogical behaviors really come from us being monkeys, it was close to half a decade until I actually heard the term 'evolutionary psychology' but what I had put together explained human behavior so much better.

In the past few years of course I went back to center - ie. I'm open to the possibility of a deity but I believe that if such a deity does exist he/she/it is not held by any world religion and that likely the truest roadmap we'll ever have to finding or understanding this deity is via scientific exploration and understanding the rhyme and reasoning of our own universe. After all omniscience and omnipotence means generally speaking that there's no such thing as a factor out of your control and, if this is a particular deity's profound act of self-expression, no point in trying to do something other than listen to them directly in what we know for certain is their own words.

Irenaeus had some interesting effects as well.


Supposedly 144,000 of them are marked for conversion on day one of the tribulation, perhaps some of it not all of these would be former atheists. Salvation by having the right blood at the right time seems even stranger when highlighted against any notion that those who don't believe are going to hell.

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The Christians call that original error/sin due to Eve and Adam eating the wrong organic tree's fruit in the Garden of Paradise. Apparently Eve was influenced by a talking snake and the Landlord of the Garden of Paradise - God - got so angry that God damned the entire human race to heck including President Barack Obama from Illinois and President George Bush, Jr. from Texas. Original sin is portrayed in The Pilgrim's Progress religious science fiction book by John Bunyan as dust on the floor which can be washed clean with the grace of the Christian (Geneva Bible) Bible gospel. John the Baptist (Judaism) used Jordan River water baptism to wash off the original sin and that technique was copied by his Jewish cousin, Jesus Christ (Judaism - later reformed to Christianity).

The Christians found crucifixion disgusting so replaced crucifixion with torture and burning heretics at the stake. (Spanish Inquisition/heretic burnings - No questions allowed - convert or die). The corrupt Pope of Italy put Galileo under house arrest for believing that the earth revolved around the sun. Galileo did not like the idea of being tortured/his fingernails pulled out by the fascist, corrupt Pope of the Vatican so astronomer Galileo recanted his scientific observation. By the way, Bush, Jr. closed down the White House and lowered the USA flag to half-staff in honor of the corrupt fascist, child crime hiding foreign Pope of Italy when he died a few years ago. Of course Bush, Jr., a Bible thumper, says that waterboarding (torture) in Iraq and Afghanistan is a good thing.

It was a choice between the Ravens, Natty, or Poe. I don't watch football and I've never willingly read anything by Poe, but I do enjoy beer!



Scot McKnight for one. His book on Mary was as good as any I've read, at least in terms of placing her in her historical/religious context. But mostly it seems like a lot of noise and following the latest fad or megachurch pastor or surefire discipleship program. Prosperity Gospel; the Rapture; name-it-and-claim-it theology; so many many ways of squirming out of simply taking up the cross and following behind.

But why Christianity? Is it because of the influence and availability of Christian literature around you? Or could it be the concept of love and forgiveness being preached by Christians about the Christian god that makes it so attractive to you?

Whatever the case, it can't be an intellectual reason for you choosing Christianity. It's all about what your heart desires.

Sure. To me, secular theism means that there may be a God out there that led to the existence of this universe but that such a belief does not prevent one from being rational about it. If I believe that God exists, it's because I see good logical reasons to believe that God exists. But I'm always ready to accept that there is no logical necessity for the existence of God if I can be clearly shown that such is the case.

Do keep in mind, though, that the kind of God that I believe in is different from what many Christians and other religious theists believe. To me, it's more like the kind of God that just caused this universe to exist but that isn't concerned at all by whatever we go through in this universe. He isn't some big bully with some ego, but he also isn't a loving and compassionate being. He's far beyond such human feelings.

That's why you could also say I'm a deist. I simply believe in a God that just doesn't care.

Actually, now that I think about it, a better label for me would be agnostic theist/deist. I believe in God, but I'm not 100% sure that God exists. I just think I have good logical reasons to.

Thank you for the response. That description definitely sounds like deism to me.

What "good logical reasons" do you have for your belief in God?

On the topic of good preachers - either of you familiar with Charles Capps? He has a book called "Faith: The Substance of Things" which is probably the most coherent nuts and bolts explanation of the reality schematic that well thought out Christians of that nature hold. I actually took him up on his suggestion of praying every day to "Call the things that aren't as if they are" and have been doing that since last April - partly as an experiment but partly because I'm asking for (or technically thanking God for) are things I should have and things he'd want me to ask for. That and, if everything that I'll ever do was pre-written from the big bang, I'm sure this is part of the story so - it'll be interesting to see where this leads and whether I notice changes in my life relative to that act.

Just to make it very clear, I was NOT what you would call an "easy-believist". I believed in good works ... just not for salvation. In fact, I used to have heated discussions with the "easy-believists".

Don't make wrong assumptions about my previous Christian faith. I didn't belong to a lazy evangelical church. I belonged to a strong fundamentalist one.



Irrelevant. I said nothing about physical suffering. The pastor of the church I used to go to was more extreme than any Roman Catholic I know when it came to holiness and living the Christian faith.



True. Only after I stopped believing did I realize how seriously flawed and dangerous Christianity really is (along with other religions). That's why I can no longer adhere to any of them.