Evidence vs Faith

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Post-natural science gets no results from scientific scrutiny. In fact, its stated goal is the subjugation of scientific scrutiny in the name of its own moral superiority.

Thank you for re-enforcing my point.

I look forward to other, like-minded exchanges.

Science consists of hypothesis and principles that are empirically testable and therefore potentially falsifiable. Everything about a science is provisional except for one major principle: all theories must be logically (internally) consistent. Everything else is open to testing and therefore to falsification.

If you want absolute truth, go to Church. If you want useful hypothesis many of which have tested out true, some of which have failed then do science.

ruveyn

First of all, correlation doesn't imply causation.

Second, people who argue for the idea that Christianity is not original usually argue for the lie that there were other mythological characters before Jesus that did all the things that Jesus was described as doing in the Bible. Since this topic is about faith and evidence, then let me make it clear now that there is no historical evidence for such a lie and that such silly arguments are based on blind faith just like any religion.

Christianity IS original. That's why it's quite successful as a religion.

There aren't any historical religious characters that are supposed to have done *all* of the things that Jesus did, but there are many who have done some of them. There are probably half a dozen that were supposedly born of virgins, for example, and twice that who had miraculous healing powers.

The Greek pantheon alone is full of deities and semi-deities who were the offspring of gods, born of human women.

Last edited by LKL on 13 Feb 2011, 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

@PJW

Well said. I think you will find yourself in a situation where everyone has differing definitions of science. AG takes it as close to religion as it can possibly get. Ruveyn on the other hand seems perfectly willing to accept doubt.

@MCalavera

Well said.

Fine. I'm ok with such claims (there are several correlations between religions). Just as long as you don't start saying that there were mythological characters before Jesus that were claimed to have died on the cross for the sins of us all and risen from the dead within 3 days and so on.



Human women, but not necessarily virgins.

No, the Greeks definitely weren't into virgin birth

thank you TBH i found it by accident earlier today lol

Because, as we all know, I am an anti-fallibilist. Whatever a scientist considers true must be true, even if it is contradicted by later science. Instead, both ideas are now true.

"Science gets our respect because it works by being rigorous by standards that are already intuitive(empiricism and theorizing) and gets the results. It is ridiculous to describe science as this anthropomorphized force to be trusted or obeyed though."

Is not religious. In fact, this statement didn't even contradict ruveyn's statement about the matter.

The only flaw I could see in Ruveyn's view of science is that it is too Popperian, but that isn't that great of a flaw and I admire Karl Popper. I just think that even though science is rigorous, it is still a human process and that it needs to be taken as a human process, and this means recognizing the insights of men like Thomas Kuhn and Michael Polanyi. Frankly, neither men pushed the matter more towards infallibility, but the contrary. Science just is more reliable than the individual human beings of the world. http://lesswrong.com/lw/gu/some_claims_ ... aordinary/ "A peer-reviewed, journal-published, replicated report is worth far more than what you see with your own eyes." (Note: I am not denying the quibbling that can often occur on these issues, just that as the author points out, individuals can have crazy moments, but most sciences keep their insanities in much better check, at least by the disagreeing insanities of other individuals)

AG really is not so stupid as to deny that doubt is one of the basic attitudes of scientific procedure. Religion is based entirely on the dismissal of doubt and subjugation to authority.

you obviously have no idea what you are talking

The core of Christianity—the worship of a miracle working, walking, talking godman who brings salvation—was also the core of other ancient religions that began at least a thousand years before Jesus. What the ancient evidence will show you is that ancient western culture had conventional ideas about Gods and their powers and place in the universe. Christianity adopted those ideas.

Ancient Pagans believed in various levels of divinity, with miraculous powers, coming down and going up to its home in the sky. Divine beings cared about people, listened to and answered their prayers. Gave them the power to prophesy. Even gave them a better deal in the eternal life that comes after death.

Osiris is said to bring his believers eternal life in Egyptian Heaven, the sacred rites of Demeter at Eleusis are described as bringing believers happiness in their eternal life, Vespatian's spittle healed a blind man, Apollonius of Tyana raised a girl from death, Pythia the priestess at the Oracle at Delphi, in Greece, prophesied, and over and over again for a thousand years, the prophecies came true, Dionysus turned water into wine, Romulus Scipio Africanus Alexander the Great Augustus and Dionysus were all described as the Son of God and Romulus was said to be born of a virgin and all born to mortal women and all these we understand to be nothing more than myths. In fact, when ancient writers tell us that in general ancient people believed in eternal life, with the good going to the Elysian Fields and the not so good going to Hades, we understand all that as a myth.

So how come when Jesus is described as
the Son of God,
born of a mortal woman,
according to prophecy,
turning water into wine,
raising girls from the dead, and
healing blind men with his spittle,
and setting it up so His believers got eternal life in Heaven contemplating the unutterable, indescribable glory of God, and off to Hades—er, I mean Hell—for the bad folks...
how come that's not a myth?

And how come, in a culture with all those Sons of God, where miracles were science, where Heaven and Hell and God and eternal life and salvation were in the temples, in the philosophies, in the books, were dancing and howling in street festivals, how come we imagine Jesus and the stories about him developed all on their own, all by themselves, without picking up any of their stuff from the culture they sprang from, the culture full of the same sort of stuff?

so before you start saying you dont know what im talking about and saying Christianity is original take a look at yourself stop being so damn ignorant and research what you are saying before you say it

if there is one thing i am really intolerant about its ignorance i spend my whole life researching anything and everything to ensure im ignorant free on as much things as possible im just glad im an Aspie or i doubt it would be possible

Post-Natural Science is all about avoiding doubt and scrutiny. This is what PJW is talking about. AG jumped straight into the attack without knowing what was being discussed. In fact he dismissed PJW's central point and decided to launch right in. Doubt may be recognizable as one of the basic tenets of scientific procedure. I just see so very little of it on these posts. Someone said something bad against science, so AG jumped right in. This is the zeal of a convert by any standard.

Ok, let's have a discussion on this in a new thread. What do you reckon?

If I'm wrong, you are free to correct me and I will admit that I'm wrong. In your new thread, please post the historical evidence that points to the relevant stuff that you said above.

and those rigorous standards are what separates religion and science and why they cannot exist together

science has a method of proving its theories using the Scientific Method but the God Theory has NO way of proving itself aside from God revealing himself to the world which he refuses to do which is 1 point for science and 0 for religion

its common knowledge to any dolt with even a basic knowledge of Ancient Histories i spent several years doing nothing but studying history because at one point i was OBSESSED with Ancient History and even aspired to be a High School history teacher

Didn't Greek and Roman gods and goddesses have a tendency for promiscuity, killing people just cause, using mortals as playthings, etc.

God seen in the Jewish and Christian faith, always has a reason for things, we may not understand but there always is one. The test of Abraham was a prelude to Jesus, in fact the entire Bible meshes together in a way we really don't see in other religions aside from Judaism.