Over-extended Feminism

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Also, education is a major component. For the average joe who works with women, and dates them, and holds doors open for them, he sees no gender inequalities (at least, none which disadvantage women). Someone with a more holistic knowledge of consistent media themes, of language, of politics, of economics, etc would be more likely to conclude that the vast majority of societal power is held by men.

Last edited by Bethie on 03 Apr 2011, 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

And you still haven't proven that Yoga is INHERENTLY more appealing to females, or if it is the result of years of culturalization-
the same goes for men being culturalized to strive for positions of power. Gender scripts harm everyone.



At the risk of being melodramatic, the "natural" justification has been utilized in defense of almost every classist system later deemed abominably unethical, slavery among them. Obsessing over skin color/nose size/brain differences does not negate that all human beings deserve equal opportunity and treatment.

If gender roles were "natural", that is, inherent to our species, they wouldn't differ so radically cross-culturally.

Different types of intelligences may exist between the sexes, but very few of the infinite number of things people are expected to do in order to conform with a strict dichotomous dictation of dress, mannerisms, and customs are at all innate as opposed to indoctrination.

There is no reason for the argument I suspect is about to take place, your disagreement can be settled by the existence of a legal system that does not condone certain roles over another. Your disagreement would only place you two in conflict should either of you push for laws that would actively manipulate roles or defend roles that do likewise.

Huh? Are you referring to this?



@Bethie: Most of the discrimination against women that I've seen is usually subcultural. You can't use institutional policies to force a change in cultural paradigms, and that was my point. Institutional policies can guarantee equal rights, but they can't guarantee the equal outcome of social equality. Subcultural, generational, and cultural change are out of the scope of institutional change and require a change in paradigms which is gradual and takes generations. The government needs to stay the hell outta social engineering. Forcing white kids to go 25 km to school just to put em on the same bus as black kids hasn't done s**t for racism, so I doubt anything that forces equality for women will have much affect either.

When did I ever say inequalities don't exist? My point was that inequality is to be addressed on a generational scale rather than an institutional scale.

Well actually it has helped eliminate racism here(KS), and I would not say exposing white children and black children to other races at a young age is social engineering in the sense that you are using. It is simply cutting off the generational inheritance of racism at the legs, that is kids have seen examples of other races with their own eyes, meaning any racism they possess is a result of their own reasoning and not completely as a result of their parents bias. It(racism) does exist here but it is now a very rare occurrence(at least in the cities and outlying suburbs), but I suspect it has had a larger effect in rural Kansas where minorities exist but not in great numbers.

No, I am refering to this...



http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf156035-0-60.html

This would be relevant if feminism was only concerned with institutional policies....


Generally, such a change is kiiiinda helped by individuals deliberately working toward that end.
Try telling a woman who gets called a b*tch for having an opinion, or a man who's too shy to ask out women and therefore faces loneliness
"Just gotta wait a couple centuries. Oh wait!"



A generation is a time frame. An institution is a bastion of societal and cultural custom and value.

In any case,
if you're saying the people who recognize the immense suffering caused by strict gender roles should, essentially, watch it happen and do nothing to protest and educate about it, FAT CHANCE.

the same people tend to say that racism no longer exists (since it's illegal to act on it in any significant way), and therefore black people who are destitute deserve to be destitute. See the OP in one of the current 'race' threads for an example.

*snort*
insurance company statisticians say otherwise.

The Oxford dictionary defines it as being about gender equality:

http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entr ... _gb0291280

Yeah obviously there's the odd exception to the rules, what's your point? I didn't say all women were girly or all men are manly. But my point was that the statistical means can be attributed for the most part to the fact that manliness and girliness are natural for the most part and not mere social construction (though social construction can blow em outta proportion). The thing I was saying about men being better drivers in general proves this. Guess what us having better spatial perception in general is attributed to? Testosterone. It has something to do with the hunter-gatherer thing where we would have to navigate our way back home after a long day of hunting. Heterosexual men tend to have better spatial perception than both women and gay men. Oh, and here's another "myth" that has also been scientifically proven; the thing about digit ratios and gay men are actually true.

That's cuz men tend to not only drive longer distances but drive more recklessly. But it's a fact that our brains are wired to have better spatial perception. Even then we have less accidents per mile, but our crashes tend to be more brutal when we do:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-dr ... le1598231/
Oh, and here's something that's relevant to the discussion and why I believe gender roles are mostly natural:


Ok women being called b*****s for having an opinion isn't the norm from what I've seen and that sounds like something a wife beater would think. And shyness isn't good for anyone. I used to be real shy and it f****d with my life in all aspects of it. And I have no problem with people working towards imposing a change in our generational culture as long as it is about equality and not reverse preferential treatment.

I wasn't saying that at all. Social inequalities need to be addressed with social change not forced equality through institutional change. By generational I was referring to generational culture.

Actually all the talk about the white man holding em down is BS these days. The street subculture is the thing holding em down the most. When it is considered uncool to go to college or move outta the projects, that's what it leads to. When cars, jewellery, shoes, etc. are considered top priority fiscal responsibility obviously isn't being encouraged. etc... etc... but if you want me to really elaborate we can talk about this in another thread.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feminism

Eh, as I said there is disagreement.

{emphasis mine}.
Did you mean, "I didn't say all women were womanly..."? Because as it stands, you are describing the statistical agregate of feminine traits using a word that indicates immaturity.


What part of 'having more crashes,' driving more recklessly,' and 'having worse crashes' do you sync up with 'being better drivers?! You are, quite simply, in denial of reality. Having fewer crashes = being a better driver; navigation is just one factor in driving well, and is far from being the most important factor.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2004/ ... questions1
quote:
...new Home Office figures revealed men are guilty of a staggering 97% of dangerous driving offences and 94% of accidents causing death or bodily harm...
Even if men drive more than women, they don't drive enough more to account for being responsible for that proportion of offenses and accidents.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3148281&page=1
quote: ...researchers with the Social Issues Resource Center beg to differ. Its 2002 report analyzed a stack of studies on male and female driving differences and came to a bold conclusion: "In all studies and analyses, without exception, men have been shown to have a higher rate of crashes than women."

Men, the report claims, drive faster than women and have less regard for traffic laws: They speed, drive drunk, run stop signs, and therefore crash twice as often as women do. In the United States, men cause 71 percent of all road fatalities, a figure that's remained constant since 1975.

But don't men drive many more miles than women do? Wouldn't that account for some of the difference? It's true that males account for 62 percent of all miles driven, versus 38 percent for females, but even after miles are clocked and driving hours are factored in, men still get into way more fatal accidents.

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article. ... tid=788126
(check out the data in this one)

http://kyaccidentinfo.com/statistics-re ... ers-women/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16698153/ns ... e-science/

this link lacks any actual data.


It's rarely voiced out loud. More often it comes out in dirty looks, being interrupted, exasperated body language, and/or exclusion from future gatherings.


I'm not going to disagree that a culture of helplessness is a big problem, but it is far from being the only problem. Racism still exists, just like sexism still exists, and both are problems. I disagree personally with the branch of feminism that claims that all of our problems would go away if men didn't exist, but it's a very small subset of feminism and I suspect that it's a very small subset of black people who think similarly wrt. racism.

But the Oxford dictionary is the official guardian of the English language, by appointment of Her Majesty, and thus trumps all other dictionaries.

I often hear feminists decrying how society pushes skanky, stupid b*****s as a womans aspiration, so I imagine the only coherent position is to push against the horrendous Islamic culture. It's fine that a woman choices to dress up like a tent. It isn't fine that she would be stoned if she wore something revealing, or did the things that men do. I'm surprised that the Islamic world isn't the main topic of discussion for feminism.

Hmmph Americans don't believe in Majesties.