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Vexcalibur
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15 Apr 2011, 7:58 pm

You should always remember that nobody owes you anything in life. There is a culture of entitlement among some people, that a government really owes them. The government needs to protect them from crime, invest in infrastructure and go to war to balance oil prices for their benefit but they should pay far less taxes than able to allow all of that and let other people pay those taxes for them. That's not right.


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skafather84
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15 Apr 2011, 8:39 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
You should always remember that nobody owes you anything in life.


I don't especially feel entitled to anything, I just know what's the best organization for the larger things like this. It's just logical to me. Nothing about me specifically...I've never taken a government handout other than when I received compensation for Hurricane Katrina and considering that was a massive f**kup on the part of the government that cost me my home, furniture, job, possessions, antiques, collectibles, memorabilia, and completely f****d up my life tragectory; they probably owed me a bit more than what I got. But other than that check, I haven't ever taken government benefits: when I'm out of a job, I get a new one and haven't ever filed unemployment; when I'm sick I either take care of it myself or shell out the money for a doctor's visit, I don't leech there; I pay my own way on rent, insurance, utilities and everything else. I don't need to be told that I'm not owed anything, I live it every day. I just can recognize that there are things that are horribly ineffective for society as a whole because of the nature of the endeavor. Healthcare and insurance are two areas that particularly strike me as entities that cannot be for-profit and still be healthy for society as a whole. It's like what people say: there's no money in a cure, there's billions in treatment. And as far as insurance goes...that was the realm of mafioso before so you know how legitimate those protections are.


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skafather84
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15 Apr 2011, 8:41 pm

Also, I've been getting more and more on edge....I can't wait for my vacation to get here already. Two years with my current employer and I'm ready to just be off for once and not on-call.


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Jacoby
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15 Apr 2011, 8:43 pm

I don't believe in taking other people's money by force. That is theft.



skafather84
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15 Apr 2011, 8:48 pm

Jacoby wrote:
I don't believe in taking other people's money by force. That is theft.



You're welcome to drop off the grid and live as a naturalist if you don't wish to participate in society. In fact, participation is fully optional; true story!


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Vexcalibur
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15 Apr 2011, 8:51 pm

skafather84 wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
You should always remember that nobody owes you anything in life.


I don't especially feel entitled to anything, I just know what's the best organization for the larger things like this. It's just logical to me. Nothing about me specifically...I've never taken a government handout other than when I received compensation for Hurricane Katrina and considering that was a massive f**** on the part of the government that cost me my home, furniture, job, possessions, antiques, collectibles, memorabilia, and completely f**** up my life tragectory; they probably owed me a bit more than what I got. But other than that check, I haven't ever taken government benefits: when I'm out of a job, I get a new one and haven't ever filed unemployment; when I'm sick I either take care of it myself or shell out the money for a doctor's visit, I don't leech there; I pay my own way on rent, insurance, utilities and everything else. I don't need to be told that I'm not owed anything, I live it every day. I just can recognize that there are things that are horribly ineffective for society as a whole because of the nature of the endeavor. Healthcare and insurance are two areas that particularly strike me as entities that cannot be for-profit and still be healthy for society as a whole. It's like what people say: there's no money in a cure, there's billions in treatment. And as far as insurance goes...that was the realm of mafioso before so you know how legitimate those protections are.


You don't need to be told that, the people I mentioned in my post do :)

Entitlement is funny.


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skafather84
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15 Apr 2011, 8:58 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
You should always remember that nobody owes you anything in life.


I don't especially feel entitled to anything, I just know what's the best organization for the larger things like this. It's just logical to me. Nothing about me specifically...I've never taken a government handout other than when I received compensation for Hurricane Katrina and considering that was a massive f**** on the part of the government that cost me my home, furniture, job, possessions, antiques, collectibles, memorabilia, and completely f**** up my life tragectory; they probably owed me a bit more than what I got. But other than that check, I haven't ever taken government benefits: when I'm out of a job, I get a new one and haven't ever filed unemployment; when I'm sick I either take care of it myself or shell out the money for a doctor's visit, I don't leech there; I pay my own way on rent, insurance, utilities and everything else. I don't need to be told that I'm not owed anything, I live it every day. I just can recognize that there are things that are horribly ineffective for society as a whole because of the nature of the endeavor. Healthcare and insurance are two areas that particularly strike me as entities that cannot be for-profit and still be healthy for society as a whole. It's like what people say: there's no money in a cure, there's billions in treatment. And as far as insurance goes...that was the realm of mafioso before so you know how legitimate those protections are.


You don't need to be told that, the people I mentioned in my post do :)

Entitlement is funny.


People tend to think because I'm a democratic socialist, that I think I deserve entitlements. I just want a more balanced society.


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cdfox7
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15 Apr 2011, 9:09 pm

The UK benefits is a bit of a joke, I should know am on them for long term mental health issues. You get more money on benefits than working a minimal waged job., add into the mix the poor quality of NHS mental healthcare, poor quality of social housing & etc. you get barriers stopping you getting into the job market.

The ConDem gov is only paying lip service to these barriers. Its the same old Tory of the 80s only thinking of helping there w(b)anker mates in the square mile & themselves by skimming cash from the taxpayer for s**t like duck houses & etc .



Jacoby
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15 Apr 2011, 9:15 pm

skafather84 wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
I don't believe in taking other people's money by force. That is theft.



You're welcome to drop off the grid and live as a naturalist if you don't wish to participate in society. In fact, participation is fully optional; true story!


Sounds cool to me, just don't send the gubermint to my house with guns and tanks.



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15 Apr 2011, 9:22 pm

Jacoby wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
I don't believe in taking other people's money by force. That is theft.



You're welcome to drop off the grid and live as a naturalist if you don't wish to participate in society. In fact, participation is fully optional; true story!


Sounds cool to me, just don't send the gubermint to my house with guns and tanks.

Then don't live on land to which the government has any claim.


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Jacoby
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15 Apr 2011, 11:04 pm

Orwell wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
I don't believe in taking other people's money by force. That is theft.



You're welcome to drop off the grid and live as a naturalist if you don't wish to participate in society. In fact, participation is fully optional; true story!


Sounds cool to me, just don't send the gubermint to my house with guns and tanks.

Then don't live on land to which the government has any claim.


Where might that be? Uranus? That is, until they find something there they want to take.

Killing people is wrong Orwell :?



Orwell
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15 Apr 2011, 11:16 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
I don't believe in taking other people's money by force. That is theft.



You're welcome to drop off the grid and live as a naturalist if you don't wish to participate in society. In fact, participation is fully optional; true story!


Sounds cool to me, just don't send the gubermint to my house with guns and tanks.

Then don't live on land to which the government has any claim.


Where might that be? Uranus? That is, until they find something there they want to take.

There is an entire unclaimed continent. A bit cold, but it's there. And there are patches of ungoverned land elsewhere in the world, such as Somalia and the Pakistan/Afghan border region. I'm sure there are other areas in Africa or in parts of South America that are not under the jurisdiction of any particular government.

Quote:
Killing people is wrong Orwell :?

Have I advocated that? I'm confused.


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Awesomelyglorious
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16 Apr 2011, 12:26 am

Orwell wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
The courts/police should pay for themselves via fees and fines.

Do you realize what a phenomenally bad idea that would be? I mean... seriously, just think for two seconds about what that would actually result in.

Depends on the framing of it. I mean, obviously I have skepticism towards how phenomenally bad this idea would be, but there is some dependence on how it is conceived. I think that there are a few problems:
1) Perverse incentives in law enforcement
2) Perverse incentives in collection of money
3) Possible legal isolation of people lacking money for whatever reason.



Awesomelyglorious
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16 Apr 2011, 12:27 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Property taxes should pay for schools and non-commercial roadways, streets, etc.
Sales taxes should pay for local administrative costs, record keeping and fire departments.
Commerce taxes should pay for commercial roadways and airports.
The courts/police should pay for themselves via fees and fines.


The problem with property taxes paying for schools is that people will redraw their school districts to maximize the money going to their child's school, while allowing a neighboring district to suffer. If you don't have a shopping mall in your school district you will be underfunded, and the neighboring district that has the shopping mall will be overfunded. Guess how and why I've learned all about that?

The quality of education should not be dependent on how many high rise commercial properties (not leased by government agencies, because those are exempt), shopping malls, and mansions your school district happens to include. And, yet, it is.

This is pretty true. Property taxes are pretty arbitrary when one looks at the matter.



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16 Apr 2011, 12:32 am

Look, when getting into government ownership and theft, I actually think we start pressing on our intuitions on the matter to the point where they start seeming incoherent. Why? Government rights are not conceived of as unlimited even though "government as property owner" would conceive of government rights as being unlimited. At the same time, a group of people deciding how to spend your money is absurd, but at the same time, notions of legitimacy are legitimate, and most people are willing to violate some rights for the greater good, thus pushing for tolerance.

In the end, most of the things used to address this matter seem to really be slogans rather than deeper thoughts. After all, 100% taxation seems undeniably to be a form of theft if done by the government, as we don't consider the government to have a right to arbitrarily ruin folks, and we do see them as having a right to the resources they earn. "Taxation as theft" also doesn't work due to conflict with notions of legitimacy and necessity. So... yeah...



Bethie
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16 Apr 2011, 1:02 am

I believe in taxation...of the rich.
I believe in social programs...not billions for proving whose pen!s/guns/bombs are the biggest.


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