21 Apr 2011, 10:56 am
leejosepho
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21 Apr 2011, 10:58 am
Vigilans wrote:
Food for thought:
The first part of that is quite backwards and in direct conflict with the OP question. "Believers" are the ones primarily receiving the thrashings here, not the atheists.
leejosepho
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21 Apr 2011, 11:03 am
21 Apr 2011, 11:05 am
TallyMan wrote:
When religious people give so called evidence supporting their beliefs it is always based on more beliefs or suppositions with no foundation in demonstrable hard facts. I have read and researched for many years with an open mind and was once a Christian and attended various churches in search of the "truth". It wasn't until I studied sciences in depth at university including evolution that my eyes were opened and the house of cards of beliefs and superstition collapsed. Whether I am worth knowing or not is irrelevant to the issues.
Rubbish. You're picking and choosing.
The great flood was documented in more than 10 cultures all over the world.. I don't know the exact number but it's heaps.
I research telekenesis, telepathy, spiritual energy, energy fields, behaviour of the earth re: ice ages and solar activity, evolution and pondering on original and eternal energy sources, and heaps more, and I can safely say there is plenty of "evidence" of this sort of stuff, but it gets poo pooed by narrow minded people anyway because human science doesn't publicise it.
Because humans are SOOOOOO smart when it comes to life forms in this universe
Last edited by hale_bopp on 21 Apr 2011, 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
leejosepho
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21 Apr 2011, 11:06 am
21 Apr 2011, 11:23 am
leejosepho
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21 Apr 2011, 11:23 am
hale_bopp wrote:
I research telekenesis, telepathy, spiritual energy, energy fields, behaviour of the earth re: ice ages and solar activity, evolution and pondering on original and eternal energy sources, and heaps more, and I can safely say there is plenty of "evidence" of this sort of stuff, but it gets poo pooed by narrow minded people anyway because human science doesn't publicise it.
Because humans are SOOOOOO smart when it comes to life forms in this universe
Because humans are SOOOOOO smart when it comes to life forms in this universe
Yes, and here is where I finally began catching on to all of that ...
"The prosaic steel girder is a mass of electrons whirling around each other at incredible speed. These tiny bodies are governed by precise laws, and these laws hold true throughout the material world. Science tells us so. We have no reason to doubt it. When, however, the perfectly logical assumption is suggested that underneath the material world and life as we see it, there is an All Powerful, Guiding, Creative Intelligence, right there our perverse streak comes to the surface and we laboriously set out to convince ourselves it isn't so. We read wordy books and indulge in windy arguments, thinking we believe this universe needs no God to explain it. Were our contentions true, it would follow that life originated out of nothing, means nothing, and proceeds nowhere.
"Instead of regarding ourselves as intelligent agents, spearheads of God's ever advancing Creation, we agnostics and atheists chose to believe that our human intelligence was the last word, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and end of all. Rather vain of us [who were thereby also dying of chronic alcoholism], wasn't it?
"We, who have traveled this dubious path, beg you to lay aside prejudice, even against organized religion. We have learned that whatever the human frailties of various faiths may be, those faiths have given purpose and direction to millions. People of faith have a logical idea of what life is all about. Actually, we used to have no reasonable conception whatever. We used to amuse ourselves by cynically dissecting spiritual beliefs and practices when we might have observed that many spiritually-minded persons of all races, colors, and creeds were demonstrating a degree of stability, happiness and usefulness which we should have sought ourselves."
("A.A.", the book, page 49, emphasis added)
leejosepho
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21 Apr 2011, 11:27 am
21 Apr 2011, 11:27 am
leejosepho wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
If something is true there is no need for belief, the facts themselves are sufficient.
It is true that I could not stop drinking, and it is now true that I no longer have to drink after taking the Twelve Steps for spiritual transformation.
TallyMan wrote:
I don't need to believe that there is night and day. I know the layout of the solar system and the way the Earth rotates; this logically means there is night and day.
I say the same about permanent recovery from chronic alcoholism.
Hi Lee.
I fully acknowledge that your twelve steps and religious belief have turned your life around for you. I cannot dispute that. Many people find strength to cope in their day to day lives because of their religious beliefs. Just because their belief has a positive effect on their life does not mean the basis of those beliefs is real though. No matter how real it may seem to them. For many people religious beliefs are a psychological placebo.
leejosepho
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21 Apr 2011, 11:38 am
TallyMan wrote:
Hi Lee.
Nice to see you back again, TallyMan!
TallyMan wrote:
I fully acknowledge that your twelve steps and religious belief have turned your life around for you. I cannot dispute that. Many people find strength to cope in their day to day lives because of their religious beliefs.
Not meaning to split hairs here, but only to be clear and precise:
Whatever I might or might not happen to "believe" actually has nothing to do with anything here. Rather, and on my simple willingness to believe God actually could and would manage my life quite successfully so I would no longer have to drink (Step Two), I made a decision (Step Three) to take some specific action (Steps Four through Nine) and then discovered this truth/fact for myself:
"... sanity will have returned. We will seldom be interested in liquor. If tempted, we recoil from it as [naturally as] from a hot flame. We react sanely and normally, and we will find that this has happened automatically. We will see that our new attitude toward liquor has been given us without any thought or effort on our part. It just comes! That is the miracle of it. We are not fighting it, neither are we avoiding temptation. We feel as though we had been placed in a position of neutrality - safe and protected. We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us. We are neither cocky nor are we afraid. That is our experience. That is how we react so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition."
("A.A.", the book, pages 83-84)
TallyMan wrote:
Just because their belief has a positive effect on their life does not mean the basis of those beliefs is real though.
Agreed, and I join you in telling people mere belief does not guarantee anything whatsoever.
TallyMan wrote:
For many people religious beliefs are a psychological placebo.
Absolutely.
Last edited by leejosepho on 21 Apr 2011, 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
iamnotaparakeet
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21 Apr 2011, 11:44 am
21 Apr 2011, 11:50 am
leejosepho
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21 Apr 2011, 11:52 am
21 Apr 2011, 11:52 am
hale_bopp wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
When religious people give so called evidence supporting their beliefs it is always based on more beliefs or suppositions with no foundation in demonstrable hard facts. I have read and researched for many years with an open mind and was once a Christian and attended various churches in search of the "truth". It wasn't until I studied sciences in depth at university including evolution that my eyes were opened and the house of cards of beliefs and superstition collapsed. Whether I am worth knowing or not is irrelevant to the issues.
Rubbish. You're picking and choosing.
The great flood was documented in more than 10 cultures all over the world.. I don't know the exact number but it's heaps.
OK, so you have some documentation for a flood in history.... and, your point being? There have been lots of global disasters since the Earth formed billions of years ago ranging from huge volcanic eruptions to devastation caused by asteroids.
Quote:
I research telekenesis, telepathy, spiritual energy, energy fields, behaviour of the earth re: ice ages and solar activity, evolution and pondering on original and eternal energy sources, and heaps more, and I can safely say there is plenty of "evidence" of this sort of stuff, but it gets poo pooed by narrow minded people anyway because human science doesn't publicise it.
Because humans are SOOOOOO smart when it comes to life forms in this universe
Picking and choosing is an essential part of research into any subject otherwise you accept all fantasy whether it has any basis in reality or not. An open mind is essential to let the information in but a discerning and educated mind is needed to sort out what is logical and correct and what is hearsay and fantasy. If some physical phenomenon can be repeated and demonstrated to other people then it likely has some basis in reality. If some physical phenomenon is claimed but not substantiated it gets rejected. That is the basis of science. To do otherwise it would be called witchcraft instead. Claims need to be looked at by people with similar expertise in each field, then they are published. Science works on the principle of peer review. Just because your photograph has some refracted light in it doesn't mean you've discovered a second sun and the cause of global warming!
21 Apr 2011, 11:58 am
leejosepho
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21 Apr 2011, 12:00 pm
