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Inuyasha
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25 Apr 2011, 12:09 am

Subotai wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

leejosepho wrote:

Philologos wrote:

I have suspected the "water" poured on may have had some petroleum / naphtha contennt .....

Lemme go grab some lighter fluid and a few pebbles and see whether Ruveyn can arrange for a bit of lightening ...

I don't recall it saying it was a stormy day, so now we have lightning coming out of the clear blue sky. And then it just happened to hit the offering location he had set up... There comes a point when coincidences are no longer coincidences.

Lightning has been known to strike far away from the actual region covered by the thundercloud. Usually the (relatively) recently discovered 'positive lighting' variety

While, that is true the odds of it hitting the offering place precisely when Elijah wanted it to are pretty astronomical.

Not too sure of all the specifics of the story myself. Just felt like adding that blue-sky lightning does happen. I am pretty interested by extreme weather. Anyways, carry on gentlemen

I'm pointing out that Elijah had to put a lot of faith on the fact something would happen, so unless you can prove that he was really an alien with a space ship that had rayguns, I think there is a good indication that God does exist.

Or that story isn't being told accurately. The lightning was probably unexpected, and the recounting of it was done later to include it being 'asked for' or however the story goes. That isn't unheard of in religious scripture (not exclusive to Christianity), assigning divine significance to natural events after the fact. Hell, its happening now, with crazy people making claims that God was punishing the Japanese for... whatever the Japanese do... with that earthquake, or whatever

And another possibility is that the story is entirely accurate, you can't dismiss that possibility and legitimately claim you're being objective.

And another possibility is Hercules, son of god, did INDEED travel to Hades and capture Cerberus.

I take it you're also saying that Kevin Sorbo is really Hercules and his old TV show was really factual tales of his exploits.

Subotai
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25 Apr 2011, 12:12 am

Inuyasha wrote:

Subotai wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

leejosepho wrote:

Philologos wrote:

I have suspected the "water" poured on may have had some petroleum / naphtha contennt .....

Lemme go grab some lighter fluid and a few pebbles and see whether Ruveyn can arrange for a bit of lightening ...

I don't recall it saying it was a stormy day, so now we have lightning coming out of the clear blue sky. And then it just happened to hit the offering location he had set up... There comes a point when coincidences are no longer coincidences.

Lightning has been known to strike far away from the actual region covered by the thundercloud. Usually the (relatively) recently discovered 'positive lighting' variety

While, that is true the odds of it hitting the offering place precisely when Elijah wanted it to are pretty astronomical.

Not too sure of all the specifics of the story myself. Just felt like adding that blue-sky lightning does happen. I am pretty interested by extreme weather. Anyways, carry on gentlemen

I'm pointing out that Elijah had to put a lot of faith on the fact something would happen, so unless you can prove that he was really an alien with a space ship that had rayguns, I think there is a good indication that God does exist.

Or that story isn't being told accurately. The lightning was probably unexpected, and the recounting of it was done later to include it being 'asked for' or however the story goes. That isn't unheard of in religious scripture (not exclusive to Christianity), assigning divine significance to natural events after the fact. Hell, its happening now, with crazy people making claims that God was punishing the Japanese for... whatever the Japanese do... with that earthquake, or whatever

And another possibility is that the story is entirely accurate, you can't dismiss that possibility and legitimately claim you're being objective.

And another possibility is Hercules, son of god, did INDEED travel to Hades and capture Cerberus.

I take it you're also saying that Kevin Sorbo is really Hercules and his old TV show was really factual tales of his exploits.

Never seen/heard of it.

leejosepho
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25 Apr 2011, 5:58 am

Vigilans wrote:

I don't believe in the supernatural. I'm more inclined to look at it from an anthropologists view and respect the belief but still see there being a rational (not magical) explanation

Going at least half-way with you there, the monstrous volcanic explosion Graham Phillips -- http://www.grahamphillips.net/ -- talks about as a rational explanation for the "plagues" of Exodus makes good sense to me as opposed to thinking frogs or whatever had just been "poofed" into existence like I had assumed when I was just a child. And if Phillips is correct, the order of the plagues as presented in Scripture is likely wrong.

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ruveyn
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25 Apr 2011, 8:13 am

Inuyasha wrote:

While, that is true the odds of it hitting the offering place precisely when Elijah wanted it to are pretty astronomical.

Go do a golf course while the charges are building up on the clouds overhead. Now raise your metal golf club up real high and you will see just how astonomical the odds are against being struck by lightning.

Hundreds of people are killed or injured each year because they present the best path for an electric charge for hundreds of yards around.

Electricity 101. You don't need God to explain stuff like this. He has much better things to do then starting up fires.

ruveyn

JakobVirgil
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25 Apr 2011, 8:55 am

you are all silly monkeys
how did elijah do it?
we if you belive the bible than God did it.
and if you don't then it did not happen.

it is like in a discussion on how superman got his powers
rejecting the krypton theory.

:lol:

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ruveyn
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25 Apr 2011, 8:58 am

Inuyasha wrote:

leejosepho wrote:

Philologos wrote:

I have suspected the "water" poured on may have had some petroleum / naphtha contennt .....

Lemme go grab some lighter fluid and a few pebbles and see whether Ruveyn can arrange for a bit of lightening ...

I don't recall it saying it was a stormy day, so now we have lightning coming out of the clear blue sky. And then it just happened to hit the offering location he had set up... There comes a point when coincidences are no longer coincidences.

The bible text does not state what the weather was. All we knows is that the altars were located at a high point (as altars were in those days) and a charge can build up on puffy white cumulus clouds. One does not need a rainstorm. For all we know a precursor to a tornado could have been building up over where the altars were.

ruveyn

leejosepho
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25 Apr 2011, 10:14 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

if you believe the bible then God did it.
and if you don't then it did not happen.

Yes ... and now if we could just find the actual site and somehow prove even the rocks are no longer there ...

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Inuyasha
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25 Apr 2011, 11:26 am

ruveyn wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

While, that is true the odds of it hitting the offering place precisely when Elijah wanted it to are pretty astronomical.

Go do a golf course while the charges are building up on the clouds overhead. Now raise your metal golf club up real high and you will see just how astonomical the odds are against being struck by lightning.

Hundreds of people are killed or injured each year because they present the best path for an electric charge for hundreds of yards around.

Electricity 101. You don't need God to explain stuff like this. He has much better things to do then starting up fires.

ruveyn

Then why wasn't Elijah, or the Baal priests struck by lightning, I don't recall anything mentioning metal rods, and the Baal priests certainly were carrying a lot of metal on them.

ruveyn
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25 Apr 2011, 11:28 am

[quote="Inuyasha"

Then why wasn't Elijah, or the Baal priests struck by lightning, I don't recall anything mentioning metal rods, and the Baal priests certainly were carrying a lot of metal on them.[/quote]

Read the text. We wet down his altar. The priests of Ba'al did not. The water reduced the resistance and presented a better path for electric flow.

Electricity 101.

God has better things to do than eat roasted meat and start fires.

ruveyn

Inuyasha
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25 Apr 2011, 11:31 am

ruveyn wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Then why wasn't Elijah, or the Baal priests struck by lightning, I don't recall anything mentioning metal rods, and the Baal priests certainly were carrying a lot of metal on them.

Read the text. We wet down his altar. The priests of Ba'al did not. The water reduced the resistance and presented a better path for electric flow.

Electricity 101.

God has better things to do than eat roasted meat and start fires.

ruveyn

God was proving he was the one true God, plus Elijah was his prophet so I think God would make time for this demonstration.

ruveyn
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25 Apr 2011, 11:37 am

Inuyasha wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

God was proving he was the one true God, plus Elijah was his prophet so I think God would make time for this demonstration.

You are accepting as fact a story told by a bronze age dude who did not know that things consisted of atoms and that fire from heaven was the discharge of a capacitor.

Will you puhleeeeeeeeeze stop quoting the Bible as though it were a book of facts. Puhleeeze? The Bible is a book of fairy tails and J.R.R. Tolkien wrote a better one.

ruveyn

Inuyasha
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25 Apr 2011, 11:56 am

ruveyn wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

God was proving he was the one true God, plus Elijah was his prophet so I think God would make time for this demonstration.

You are accepting as fact a story told by a bronze age dude who did not know that things consisted of atoms and that fire from heaven was the discharge of a capacitor.

My explanation is better than yours of Elijah somehow having knowledge that arguably didn't exist in that time period. I mean seriously, knowledge of electricity, how to direct lightning etc. You're saying that someone from the bronze age had that kind of knowledge.

Oh and there were systems of writing in the bronze age, it is believed the Jewish people actually had a written language in that time period.

ruveyn wrote:

Will you puhleeeeeeeeeze stop quoting the Bible as though it were a book of facts. Puhleeeze? The Bible is a book of fairy tails and J.R.R. Tolkien wrote a better one.

J.R.R. Tolkien had the advantage of a typewriter at the very least. The amount of effort it took to write and put together a text by hand is enormous, a work like J.R.R. Tolkien's probably would never have been produced in that time period, too much work. The principle reason for written works in the Bronze age would be for records, not stories of pure fantasy.

leejosepho
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25 Apr 2011, 11:57 am

Inuyasha wrote:

God was proving he was the one true God ...

No, that would be the story of Egypt and Sinai (the exodus). So in this particular case, something else was going on ...

Quote:

"And it came to be, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said to him, 'Is that you, O disturber of Yisra’el?'
"And Elijah answered, 'I ... disturb ... you and your father’s house, (and I do that because) you have ... followed the Ba'als.'
“...
"And Elijah came to all the people, and said, '... If YHWH is Elohim, follow Him; and if Ba'al, follow him.'"

For example (and only as an illustration here):

“... if it seems evil in your eyes to serve Yahuah [as things presently seem for you], then
"now choose for yourselves this day whom you are going to serve [in place of Yahuah]:
"1) the mighty ones which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or
"2) the mighty ones of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell." (Joshua 24:15)

What happened on that particular day with Elijah was a reminder to Ahab and his father's house, and that day also included the removal of -- Elijah slew -- the other-god prophets.

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Last edited by leejosepho on 25 Apr 2011, 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ruveyn
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25 Apr 2011, 12:05 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

J.R.R. Tolkien had the advantage of a typewriter at the very least. The amount of effort it took to write and put together a text by hand is enormous, a work like J.R.R. Tolkien's probably would never have been produced in that time period, too much work. The principle reason for written works in the Bronze age would be for records, not stories of pure fantasy.

In the bronze age they had no science. But they did have "just-so" stories. The bible is mostly a collection of "just-so" stories intermixed with a bit of tribal lore and history. It is not primarily a book of fact and most of the "historical" material asserted in the bible has not an iota of support from archeology which is a fact-based discipline. For example the Exodus from Egypt. Not an iota of archeological evidence. And if Pharo's panzer corp perished by drowning in the Sea of Reeds where are the remains of the chariots and where are the bones? Nowhere to be found.

As to Egyptian references to the "Hibarus" there is no evidence that this is a reference to the Hebrews. Not an iota. The Exodus makes for a Good Story of how the Israelite Nation was born. Very inspiring.
But not fact based.

The TNKH (or Hebrew bible) is a piss poor book of record.

ruveyn

leejosepho
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25 Apr 2011, 12:14 pm

ruveyn wrote:

... the Exodus from Egypt. Not an iota of archeological evidence. And if Pharo's panzer corp perished by drowning in the Sea of Reeds where are the remains of the chariots and where are the bones? Nowhere to be found.

Right or wrong, there are people who claim otherwise ...

Quote:

Proof of the Parting of the Red Sea?

... based on the findings of Ron Wyatt, a colorful and controversial amateur archeologist ... a passionate and sincere man, according to his supporters, but his critics abound and scientists and archeologists regarded him as an untrained maverick at best ...

Wyatt's interest in the crossing of the Red Sea by the Hebrews became focused on the site of Nuweiba in Egypt because it seemed to fit some of the description of Biblical and historical accounts of the geography. It was while diving along the beach at Nuweiba that he found what he said were chariot parts.

During his first visit to Nuweiba in 1978 he found a large column lying on the beach that looked like an ancient artifact. Later he found that it had been set up by Egyptian authorities in concrete for display. He believed it to be a marker set up by King Solomon to note the crossing of the Red Sea.

It was on that same trip in 1978 that Wyatt found what he said were the remains of chariots and chariot wheels at the bottom of the sea. They were heavily covered with coral. Wyatt claimed to have retrieved one of the wheels and said an Egyptian authority declared that it was from the 18th dynasty of Ancient Egypt, but nobody seems to know where that chariot wheel is is now located.

Regarding the human bones found at the site, TruthOrFiction.com talked with Aaron Sen, one of those who has traveled to Nuweiba and who found the bones. He said the bones were authenticated as human at Stockholm University are are in the possession of professor Lennart Moller who was at Stockholm University in the late 1990s.

It was also discovered that there seems to be an underwater "bridge" of sea bed that is shallower than the depths on either side of it and that crosses from one side of the sea to the other. Wyatt said that could have been where the waters parted and made the way for the Hebrews to cross.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/c/ ... wheels.htm (pictures near bottom of page)

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Inuyasha
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25 Apr 2011, 12:17 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

J.R.R. Tolkien had the advantage of a typewriter at the very least. The amount of effort it took to write and put together a text by hand is enormous, a work like J.R.R. Tolkien's probably would never have been produced in that time period, too much work. The principle reason for written works in the Bronze age would be for records, not stories of pure fantasy.

In the bronze age they had no science. But they did have "just-so" stories. The bible is mostly a collection of "just-so" stories intermixed with a bit of tribal lore and history. It is not primarily a book of fact and most of the "historical" material asserted in the bible has not an iota of support from archeology which is a fact-based discipline. For example the Exodus from Egypt. Not an iota of archeological evidence. And if Pharo's panzer corp perished by drowning in the Sea of Reeds where are the remains of the chariots and where are the bones? Nowhere to be found.

Like the idea the city of Troy never existed? Furthermore, there have been numerous instances of the Bible being proven correct, and scientists then turn around and say okay so that is correct but the rest has to be made up. Scientists are hell-bent on trying to prove the Bible is false, that is more of something known as a serious bias and not being objective.

ruveyn wrote:

As to Egyptian references to the "Hibarus" there is no evidence that this is a reference to the Hebrews. Not an iota. The Exodus makes for a Good Story of how the Israelite Nation was born. Very inspiring.
But not fact based.

The TNKH (or Hebrew bible) is a piss poor book of record.

ruveyn

As I pointed out earlier the Egyptians had a history of destroying all reference to anything they viewed as especially tragic, even reigns that they wished to forget. The fact Egyptian Records don't mention the Israelites isn't surprising. You think they would want to admit they lost a whole army when they tried to exterminate a bunch of escaped slaves.

Likewise, it isn't common for cultures to like to admit they are the decendents of slaves.

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