Albert Einstein's Belief in Pantheism
So true. My own beliefs changed very publicly.
: For 35 years I was once a devout Mormon, and made a lot of pro-Mormon web sites. Then the contradictions became too great and I left. For a while I made a lot of anti-Mormon web sites. Now I make neither, but I left both up because I believe in honesty, and the power of information. people can see both sides and choose. Some people just think I'm weird - how can one guy have contradictory beliefs? But it's as you said, beliefs change. I believe in honesty. I'm not going to hide what I once was. I also believe in shades of grey - some of my old stuff still has merit, and I want people to decide for themselves.
This is a large part of why I left my church. The Bible (for example) can be made to say whatever you want, so was not much good as a guide to life. It is, however, very interesting as a single book that links so many many times and peoples.
Oh, and the main reason I read this thread: I am a pantheist. The universe is like a drug to me. Maybe this is because of my AS - I experience it so intensely.
I also like how pantheism can reconcile both religion and atheism. Of course, most religious people and atheists do not want to be reconciled, but at least the option is there if they ever want it.
Einstein had plenty to say (link) about why he is a pantheist.
Oodain
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if pantheism, as i learned in another thread here not long ago,
is all about holding the same admiration for the universe that religious people do for their god then i am a pantheist too.
i find the thought of the observable universe exhilerating, the almost endless possibilities that lie in its illusion of emptyness is amazing.
had you asked me yesterday i would have been an atheist,
though i guess i really should read up on the history of the term.
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is all about holding the same admiration for the universe that religious people do for their god then i am a pantheist too.
i find the thought of the observable universe exhilerating, the almost endless possibilities that lie in its illusion of emptyness is amazing.
had you asked me yesterday i would have been an atheist,
though i guess i really should read up on the history of the term.
I think you can be both. Pantheism and atheism are compatible ideas. Pantheism just emphasizes an important way of relating to the universe. They have no contradictory assertions.
Oodain
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true, i simply view the term pantheist as "atheist with religious like feelings towards the universe"
i dont think it has a will, i dont thinkit has intention, its laws govern how we work as we are part of it, science is the understadning of these laws.
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//through chaos comes complexity//
the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.
Last edited by Oodain on 19 May 2011, 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I can't see much good thinking in the Einstein stuff.
The best I see here:
http://einsteinandreligion.com/atheism.html
"Well a priori one should expect a chaotic world which cannot be grasped by the mind in anyway. One could (yes one should) expect the world to be subjected to law only to the extent that we order it through our intelligence. Ordering of this kind would be like the alphabetical ordering of the words of a language. By contrast, the kind of order created by Newton's theory of gravitation, for instance, is wholly different. Even if the axioms of the theory are proposed by man, the success of such a project presupposes a high degree of ordering of the objective world, and this could not be expected a priori. That is the "miracle" which is being constantly re-enforced as our knowledge expands."
Which is an invocation of the teleological argument. However, this invocation isn't very compelling. After all, a priori claims are hard to make, as one could make the opposite claim: "Rules are simpler than no rules. We should expect simplicity first. Therefore, we should expect a lawful world above a chaotic one". This does not have to be horribly compelling, just enough so to blunt his claim. I mean, Einstein's claim that patterns are unexpected is easily questioned and his inference seems horrible, because the set of godless lawful worlds is likely rather large, so even if our probability of God goes up if easily identified laws exist, it likely won't make the inference of God more probable than not, as any explanatory principle invoked for this kind of claim would likely need to provide an explanation for God as well. Finally, his comment on Newton seems to be problematic given that physics has proven itself to be very chaotic and problematic.
Honestly though, I think Einstein's religious feeling seems to be NOT based upon powerful analytic tools or great evidence or any such thing, if only because there is a lack of arguments/evidence of argument, despite all of the vague, wishy washy emotional content.
The best I see here:
http://einsteinandreligion.com/atheism.html
"Well a priori one should expect a chaotic world which cannot be grasped by the mind in anyway. One could (yes one should) expect the world to be subjected to law only to the extent that we order it through our intelligence. Ordering of this kind would be like the alphabetical ordering of the words of a language. By contrast, the kind of order created by Newton's theory of gravitation, for instance, is wholly different. Even if the axioms of the theory are proposed by man, the success of such a project presupposes a high degree of ordering of the objective world, and this could not be expected a priori. That is the "miracle" which is being constantly re-enforced as our knowledge expands."
Which is an invocation of the teleological argument. However, this invocation isn't very compelling. After all, a priori claims are hard to make, as one could make the opposite claim: "Rules are simpler than no rules. We should expect simplicity first. Therefore, we should expect a lawful world above a chaotic one". This does not have to be horribly compelling, just enough so to blunt his claim. I mean, Einstein's claim that patterns are unexpected is easily questioned and his inference seems horrible, because the set of godless lawful worlds is likely rather large, so even if our probability of God goes up if easily identified laws exist, it likely won't make the inference of God more probable than not, as any explanatory principle invoked for this kind of claim would likely need to provide an explanation for God as well. Finally, his comment on Newton seems to be problematic given that physics has proven itself to be very chaotic and problematic.
Honestly though, I think Einstein's religious feeling seems to be NOT based upon powerful analytic tools or great evidence or any such thing, if only because there is a lack of arguments/evidence of argument, despite all of the vague, wishy washy emotional content.
Brilliant! You managed to miss the point of a statement about people missing the point. Now, THAT is Strident!
Thanks.
If you disagree with my reading, then please re-explain it. I read it as a teleological argument invocation because I was looking for Einstein to actually have some intelligent reason for his beliefs. If that is not a presentation of some intelligent reason, then Einstein's pantheism is just a mere valueless fact. What justifies us in believing pantheism is true?
Thanks.
If you disagree with my reading, then please re-explain it. I read it as a teleological argument invocation because I was looking for Einstein to actually have some intelligent reason for his beliefs. If that is not a presentation of some intelligent reason, then Einstein's pantheism is just a mere valueless fact. What justifies us in believing pantheism is true?
It wasn't a teleological argument... He says:
Meaning, that we seemingly have order out of chaos is a wonder that can't be explained. He says that our success in discovering predictable patterns
But, he also says:
Meaning, the best we can do is to stand in awe of this reality. We can't run with it and invent a creator god...
His point in saying this, in the context of the letter, is that hard atheists often blind themselves from the mysteries of existence, in their attempt at rationalizing everything. They want to eliminate the mysteries and wonders of existence, and in doing so they pull the wool over their own eyes.
Meaning, that we seemingly have order out of chaos is a wonder that can't be explained. He says that our success in discovering predictable patterns
Well, it's those two quotes that I directly infer a teleological argument from.
But without any form of argument, I do not feel that Einstein's position is compelling. We aren't justified in accepting his position for the reasons he gave, if those reasons are emotive/subjective rather than something more objective.
I mean, by your interpretation, the "teleological argument" interpretation is really just charitable, and Einstein is just a person who feels a certain way and who dislikes people who do not feel that way, but has nothing to compel us to agree. Why should we listen if he has nothing compelling when MANY people actually TRY to create compelling arguments.
Meaning, that we seemingly have order out of chaos is a wonder that can't be explained. He says that our success in discovering predictable patterns
Well, it's those two quotes that I directly infer a teleological argument from.
But without any form of argument, I do not feel that Einstein's position is compelling. We aren't justified in accepting his position for the reasons he gave, if those reasons are emotive/subjective rather than something more objective.
I mean, by your interpretation, the "teleological argument" interpretation is really just charitable, and Einstein is just a person who feels a certain way and who dislikes people who do not feel that way, but has nothing to compel us to agree. Why should we listen if he has nothing compelling when MANY people actually TRY to create compelling arguments.
Einstein never laid a religion trip on anyone. He never attempted to "sell" his belief in a Comprehensive Cosmololgical Order. His God was not a personal God that looked like an old man with a beard. Everyone one who thinks eventually will formulate a scheme of understanding the world that makes him comfortable. Einstein did this and he never made a special argument for his notion of a kind of abstract God of Order.
ruveyn
What is "Einstein's position" here??
The teleological argument is used to justify intelligent design. It's never compelling. He certainly isn't using it here. Saying "it's amazing and I am filled with awe and wonder" is not the same as "some god must have done all this".
I know about ID.
However, "it's amazing and I am filled with awe and wonder" has nothing to do with the entity in question being a divinity of any form or having god-like properties. All that we would have is just an emotive reaction, NOT an ontological difference of any form.
Err.... ok? But the question isn't "comfort", its whether a conception MEANS something, and whether a conception is RIGHT. I mean, you can go around formulating a conception of the universe where everything is powered by goblins, but the simple ridiculousness of this deserves censure.
I know about ID.
However, "it's amazing and I am filled with awe and wonder" has nothing to do with the entity in question being a divinity of any form or having god-like properties. All that we would have is just an emotive reaction, NOT an ontological difference of any form.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So what's your point?
Err..... if that's all you are saying... then the term "Pantheism" actually has no real philosophical import. The entire issue of "atheism vs pantheism" is a non-question, and presented it as a conflict or even close to a conflict is just an invitation to confuse.
