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"What! Must every little language have its own country?

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naturalplastic
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14 Jun 2011, 4:19 pm

Asterisp wrote:
Being a Frisian myself, this topic piqued an interest in me :-)
The setting of the nation is not that important. It is about the freedom for language and culture. Most Frisians are perfectly happy being part of The Netherlands, since the language can be used in schools, government and court to a certain extent. There is also place for typical cultural things like egg-gathering etc.

Making it a separate country would make it rather small and defeat some advantages of a larger country. However with the European Union in place borders are not that important anymore. It was easier for me to move to another country than to another part of NL.

About my multi-language skills, yes, they are quite useful. I can switch between Frisian and Dutch within the sentence. Besides that my command of English is satisfactory and my German is good enough for official letters. It makes it easier to look for jobs across the borders, at one point I was running for a job in Germany.


naturalplastic wrote:
Ive been told that all European languages have the same word for the country of "Germany" as our english word except two: German itsself, and French.

Deutschland, and Alemaine (dont know how its spelled) respectively.

NL: Duitsland
FY: Dútslân
Does not seem the same. But the in Dutch the word "Germanië" is known as a term for ancient Germany.


Yes Im sure that that was an oversimplification about what other countries call germany.

Obviously (from your post) the Germanic Dutch, and Freis, have the same name for Germany as Deutchland has for itsself. The english word for people from the Netherlands is very similiar to the German word for German ( Deutsch/Dutch). What do you "Dutch" people call yourselves? I know tht you call yourselves "Nederlanders",but do you also call yourselves something like "Dutch/Deutsch" as well?



Asterisp
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15 Jun 2011, 12:06 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Do the Frisians in Germany still speak their traditional dialect? Or has their language been replaced by German?

In Germany it is a small collection of North-Frisian variants, that are dying out for the most part. The Ost-Frisian is faring better (about 50% speakers), but that is actually more a saxon dialect.

Lauwers Frysk (in Dutch province of Frisia) is doing relatively well and has more status.


naturalplastic wrote:
Obviously (from your post) the Germanic Dutch, and Freis, have the same name for Germany as Deutchland has for itsself. The english word for people from the Netherlands is very similiar to the German word for German ( Deutsch/Dutch). What do you "Dutch" people call yourselves? I know tht you call yourselves "Nederlanders",but do you also call yourselves something like "Dutch/Deutsch" as well?

Nederlanders is used most. The term "Dutch/Deutsch" is not used, only in historical context, but then the term "Diets" is used preferred.



Kraichgauer
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15 Jun 2011, 12:44 am

Asterisp wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Do the Frisians in Germany still speak their traditional dialect? Or has their language been replaced by German?

In Germany it is a small collection of North-Frisian variants, that are dying out for the most part. The Ost-Frisian is faring better (about 50% speakers), but that is actually more a saxon dialect.

Lauwers Frysk (in Dutch province of Frisia) is doing relatively well and has more status.


naturalplastic wrote:
Obviously (from your post) the Germanic Dutch, and Freis, have the same name for Germany as Deutchland has for itsself. The english word for people from the Netherlands is very similiar to the German word for German ( Deutsch/Dutch). What do you "Dutch" people call yourselves? I know tht you call yourselves "Nederlanders",but do you also call yourselves something like "Dutch/Deutsch" as well?

Nederlanders is used most. The term "Dutch/Deutsch" is not used, only in historical context, but then the term "Diets" is used preferred.


Thanks.
Actually, I have a question that perhaps you can answer. There was supposed to have been someone on my Dad's side of the family back in the 17th or 18th century who was supposed to have come from a place called Holstein-Friestein. This is providing that my Dad's family sources weren't off with the name. Anyhow, have you ever heard of this place?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



naturalplastic
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15 Jun 2011, 10:45 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Asterisp wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Do the Frisians in Germany still speak their traditional dialect? Or has their language been replaced by German?

In Germany it is a small collection of North-Frisian variants, that are dying out for the most part. The Ost-Frisian is faring better (about 50% speakers), but that is actually more a saxon dialect.

Lauwers Frysk (in Dutch province of Frisia) is doing relatively well and has more status.


naturalplastic wrote:
Obviously (from your post) the Germanic Dutch, and Freis, have the same name for Germany as Deutchland has for itsself. The english word for people from the Netherlands is very similiar to the German word for German ( Deutsch/Dutch). What do you "Dutch" people call yourselves? I know tht you call yourselves "Nederlanders",but do you also call yourselves something like "Dutch/Deutsch" as well?

Nederlanders is used most. The term "Dutch/Deutsch" is not used, only in historical context, but then the term "Diets" is used preferred.


Thanks.
Actually, I have a question that perhaps you can answer. There was supposed to have been someone on my Dad's side of the family back in the 17th or 18th century who was supposed to have come from a place called Holstein-Friestein. This is providing that my Dad's family sources weren't off with the name. Anyhow, have you ever heard of this place?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Sounds like theyre thinking of "Schleswieg-Holstien".

Thats a province at the base of Jutland between Germany and Denmark that has changed hands back and forth between the two, and where Holstien cattle come from. If Denmark were a scoop of icecream the Schlieswieg-Holstien region would be the cone.



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15 Jun 2011, 11:10 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Asterisp wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Do the Frisians in Germany still speak their traditional dialect? Or has their language been replaced by German?

In Germany it is a small collection of North-Frisian variants, that are dying out for the most part. The Ost-Frisian is faring better (about 50% speakers), but that is actually more a saxon dialect.

Lauwers Frysk (in Dutch province of Frisia) is doing relatively well and has more status.


naturalplastic wrote:
Obviously (from your post) the Germanic Dutch, and Freis, have the same name for Germany as Deutchland has for itsself. The english word for people from the Netherlands is very similiar to the German word for German ( Deutsch/Dutch). What do you "Dutch" people call yourselves? I know tht you call yourselves "Nederlanders",but do you also call yourselves something like "Dutch/Deutsch" as well?

Nederlanders is used most. The term "Dutch/Deutsch" is not used, only in historical context, but then the term "Diets" is used preferred.


Thanks.
Actually, I have a question that perhaps you can answer. There was supposed to have been someone on my Dad's side of the family back in the 17th or 18th century who was supposed to have come from a place called Holstein-Friestein. This is providing that my Dad's family sources weren't off with the name. Anyhow, have you ever heard of this place?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Sounds like theyre thinking of "Schleswieg-Holstien".

Thats a province at the base of Jutland between Germany and Denmark that has changed hands back and forth between the two, and where Holstien cattle come from. If Denmark were a scoop of icecream the Schlieswieg-Holstien region would be the cone.


While that very well may be so that it was a reference to Schleswig-Holstien, I recall my Dad always making a reference to a Holstein- Friestein. That in fact would have been sometime, I believe, before Schleswig and Holstein had been taken over and combined by the Prussians. As I said, it may simply have been a matter of the proper place name having been forgotten as it was passed down the ages. Especially as most of my people on my Dad's side tended to emphasize their south Franconian roots.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Philologos
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16 Jun 2011, 12:09 am

Friend of mine had roots in the Schleswig-Holstein North Frisians.

Do you know this?

http://nordfriesland-datenbank.de/perso ... peter.html

I used to have a copy - think I passed it to him.



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16 Jun 2011, 1:34 am

Philologos wrote:
Friend of mine had roots in the Schleswig-Holstein North Frisians.

Do you know this?

http://nordfriesland-datenbank.de/perso ... peter.html

I used to have a copy - think I passed it to him.


I know of the existence of Frisians in Schleswig-Holstein, as well as a bit of their history from Wikipedia, but nothing in the way of the information I'm seeking.
I only wish I could read the information on the nordfriesland link, but I'm afraid since I got a D in high school German, all continental Germanic languages are Greek to me. :lol:
Just out of interest, is the region where your friend's people came from affiliated originally with Schleswig, or Holstein? I ask because they were originally two different states, with different histories.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Asterisp
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16 Jun 2011, 1:49 pm

My knowledge of history for that part of Germany is not that great. Problem is that spelling changes through time and can be lost.



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16 Jun 2011, 5:32 pm

Language as a part of culture enables and defines thought. To this end the maintenance of spaces in which language/culture can maintain itself is essential for the survival/integrity of the variance of thought.

Surely most people would agree that in order to solve a problem/be creative the more angles from which it is approached the better as through this diversity more 'what ifs' can be covered, more exciting inovations and inspirations concieved and embraced.

Linguistic and cultural diversity is diminishing, with it the diversity of thinking styles is also diminishing and it is my belief that this is a great loss to all of humanity as effectively we as a group become poorer, stupider, and ultimately less dynamic.

I live in a multicultural society that has effectively lost a great treasure through the loss of the pre European thinking style of the Maori peoples, the language has been saved but pretty much only as a second language, the people speaking it think in a much more European [and now Americanised] way than their Tipuna who spoke Maori as their first language and thought in Maori using Maori concepts and process' all of which added to the development of our greater national identity and culture through cultural osmosis.

To this end I think language does indeed require a space to exist. The Zionists when concieving Israel understood this over one hundred years ago when they embraced the esoteric language hebrew and declared it the everyday language of a people and then went on to make it so - now it has replaced yiddish as the language of zionist jews [a poor example given the racism attendant to zionism but that is a side issue and not integral to this point]. The Irish understood in the same time line the importance of Irish Gaelic not only to their national identity but to their culture and 'thinking style' and while it has not survived the impacts of this globalised age it was important to the creation of the modern Irish state and self identity.

peace j


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16 Jun 2011, 5:39 pm

The Jewish people have a claim on that land dating back well over 1500 years.



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16 Jun 2011, 5:50 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
The Jewish people have a claim on that land dating back well over 1500 years.


That is not relevant to either my post or this thread, the subject is language and whether there is an integral need for a physical space in which they need to exist - if I am not mistaken.

peace j


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16 Jun 2011, 7:33 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

I know of the existence of Frisians in Schleswig-Holstein, as well as a bit of their history from Wikipedia, but nothing in the way of the information I'm seeking.
I only wish I could read the information on the nordfriesland link, but I'm afraid since I got a D in high school German, all continental Germanic languages are Greek to me. :lol:
Just out of interest, is the region where your friend's people came from affiliated originally with Schleswig, or Holstein? I ask because they were originally two different states, with different histories.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Got to be Schleswig - that is where the North Friian areas are. Friend - like the author Hansen - opwrating with a Danish form of the name.



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16 Jun 2011, 8:26 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
The Jewish people have a claim on that land dating back well over 1500 years.


Land "belongs" to whoever occupies it and can keep others from kicking them out. It is all a matter of force.

Die Macht ist das Recht.

ruveyn



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16 Jun 2011, 9:07 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
The Jewish people have a claim on that land dating back well over 1500 years.


Land "belongs" to whoever occupies it and can keep others from kicking them out. It is all a matter of force.

Die Macht ist das Recht.

ruveyn


I agree. The fact alone that millions of Israelis have been born, lived, and died there makes it theirs.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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16 Jun 2011, 9:54 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
The Jewish people have a claim on that land dating back well over 1500 years.


Land "belongs" to whoever occupies it and can keep others from kicking them out. It is all a matter of force.

Die Macht ist das Recht.

ruveyn


I agree. The fact alone that millions of Israelis have been born, lived, and died there makes it theirs.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


No. It is the fact that can hold it by force that makes it theirs. The day their might is not sufficient is the day the land is no longer theirs.

ruveyn



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16 Jun 2011, 10:19 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
The Jewish people have a claim on that land dating back well over 1500 years.


Land "belongs" to whoever occupies it and can keep others from kicking them out. It is all a matter of force.

Die Macht ist das Recht.

ruveyn


I agree. The fact alone that millions of Israelis have been born, lived, and died there makes it theirs.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


No. It is the fact that can hold it by force that makes it theirs. The day their might is not sufficient is the day the land is no longer theirs.


ruveyn


What the Israelis have working for them is their educational, intellectual, economic, technical and military competence. What they have working against them is their overwhelming paranoia (which they are doing their best to give a solid basis in creating the maximum hatred for themselves in the area) and their total dependence on their military instead of an acquiescence to a policy of materially raising the standard of living of the entire Middle East which they might bring off (it is not easy nor sure) and become a valued partner to everybody in the area. The way things are going looks very bad for all concerned.