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Abortion and Original Sin

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OddFinn
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11 Jun 2011, 4:40 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
They are at least mutually exclusive.


Based on what?


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Vexcalibur
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11 Jun 2011, 4:42 pm

Common interpretations of the words?

I don't believe in sin, so I don't believe sinful people exist. But I would say that anyone who does would think sinful can't be innocent.


Just like someone who has 10 million dollars can't be money-less.


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11 Jun 2011, 4:47 pm

OddFinn wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
They are at least mutually exclusive.


Based on what?


innocent -> Not guilty of a crime or offense.
sinful -> tainted with, marked by, or full of sin
sin -> Middle English sinne, from Old English synn; akin to Old High German sunta sin and probably to Latin sont-, sons guilty,

in english they are mutually exclusive


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11 Jun 2011, 4:48 pm

pandabear wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:

However, young children are not held accountable, just as they are not held accountable in a legal case.


Human legal cases do not apply to God. God punishes an individual's sin down to the seventh generation, and even further.

We are ALL guilty of Adam's sin, even though we weren't there, and were in no position to do anything to stop him.

In a human court of law, of course we would have gotten off, scott-free. But, in God's law, we are as guilty and worthy of death as our ancestor Adam himself.


Uh that view was the result of later interpretations such as in the Middle Ages by men. The Bible does not say unbaptised infants go to hell.



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11 Jun 2011, 4:51 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Common interpretations of the words?

I don't believe in sin, but I would say that anyone who does would think sinful can't be innocent.


I'm sorry, but I think that somebody can be sinful and innocent at the same time, so I would like to have some clarification. My conception of the original sin has that someone might be innocent relating to any bad acts, but since they are not perfect, it is due of their being sinful (by the original sin).

So please tell me how your line of thinking differs from mine?


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11 Jun 2011, 4:55 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
pandabear wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:

However, young children are not held accountable, just as they are not held accountable in a legal case.


Human legal cases do not apply to God. God punishes an individual's sin down to the seventh generation, and even further.

We are ALL guilty of Adam's sin, even though we weren't there, and were in no position to do anything to stop him.

In a human court of law, of course we would have gotten off, scott-free. But, in God's law, we are as guilty and worthy of death as our ancestor Adam himself.


Uh that view was the result of later interpretations such as in the Middle Ages by men. The Bible does not say unbaptised infants go to hell.


add anti-catholic to the list


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11 Jun 2011, 5:05 pm

pandabear wrote:
Human legal cases do not apply to God. God punishes an individual's sin down to the seventh generation, and even further.

We are ALL guilty of Adam's sin, even though we weren't there, and were in no position to do anything to stop him.

In a human court of law, of course we would have gotten off, scott-free. But, in God's law, we are as guilty and worthy of death as our ancestor Adam himself.


Then God must be as immature as the school kid on the play-yard who gets mad at both the offender and the sibling or friend who was uninvolved in the matter.



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11 Jun 2011, 5:17 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
If we are conceived in Sin
and are sinful by nature.
then how are the unborn innocent?


Nature: We have a predisposition to sin or evil. The human being isn't born good.

Being "conceived" in sin means our nature is fallen from birth, and that it is an uphill battle to mold the human being into a good one. Christ wasn't born in sin because he was perfect from the beginning. Some explain it away as being hereditary since Adam and Eve, which there's some truth to... even if one doesn't believe that those two people existed, it's basically saying that the many faults with human nature has been with us for as long as we know.

The unborn are innocent because they, and all born-babies, infants, and toddlers aren't aware of their behavior. Awareness of self is gradual and standards and responsibilities begin being applied once they pass a reasonable age. So even if one is born an imperfect being, making a good human being, awareness, and adding standards and responsibilities for their actions and conduct past a reasonable age helps deal with that somewhat.


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JakobVirgil
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11 Jun 2011, 5:23 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
If we are conceived in Sin
and are sinful by nature.
then how are the unborn innocent?


Nature: We have a predisposition to sin or evil. The human being isn't born good.

Being "conceived" in sin means our nature is fallen from birth, and that it is an uphill battle to mold the human being into a good one. Christ wasn't born in sin because he was perfect from the beginning. Some explain it away as being hereditary since Adam and Eve, which there's some truth to... even if one doesn't believe that those two people existed, it's basically saying that the many faults with human nature has been with us for as long as we know.

The unborn are innocent because they, and all born-babies, infants, and toddlers aren't aware of their behavior. Awareness of self is gradual and standards and responsibilities begin being applied once they pass a reasonable age. So even if one is born an imperfect being, making a good human being, awareness, and adding standards and responsibilities for their actions and conduct past a reasonable age helps deal with that somewhat.


I am not using this phraseology to mock
but for ease of syntax. (as you know I don't tend to subtle when I do intend to mock)
In your opinion do the unborn go to heaven when a pregnancy terminates?


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MarketAndChurch
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11 Jun 2011, 5:48 pm

pandabear wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:

However, young children are not held accountable, just as they are not held accountable in a legal case.


Human legal cases do not apply to God. God punishes an individual's sin down to the seventh generation, and even further.

We are ALL guilty of Adam's sin, even though we weren't there, and were in no position to do anything to stop him.

In a human court of law, of course we would have gotten off, scott-free. But, in God's law, we are as guilty and worthy of death as our ancestor Adam himself.



We don't know if Adam and Eve existed. The point of the story of Adam (earthling) and Eve(Life) is to tell the nature of Mankind.

Adam might have "sinned" - if you hate him for denying YOU the possibility of living forever - but the repercussions of his so-called "sin" were not punishment. How was what he did a sin btw? The torah never said that they were punished for their action... it just says that God gave them two trees to chose from and each had a consequence. The consequence of knowledge and a meaningful life is pain(ultimately suffering) and death.

We would rather be fully alive and know it all (awareness) then just be a highly intelligent animal with the possibility of immortality by constantly eating from the tree of life... we opted for the former and lead a richer existence because of it. Knowledge of Good and Evil just means to know everything and know life, and that is what we opted for.

If anything, you should be thanking the character we know as Adam because death makes life meaningful; the innocent don't know anything from death.


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11 Jun 2011, 5:58 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
If we are conceived in Sin
and are sinful by nature.
then how are the unborn innocent?


Nature: We have a predisposition to sin or evil. The human being isn't born good.

Being "conceived" in sin means our nature is fallen from birth, and that it is an uphill battle to mold the human being into a good one. Christ wasn't born in sin because he was perfect from the beginning. Some explain it away as being hereditary since Adam and Eve, which there's some truth to... even if one doesn't believe that those two people existed, it's basically saying that the many faults with human nature has been with us for as long as we know.

The unborn are innocent because they, and all born-babies, infants, and toddlers aren't aware of their behavior. Awareness of self is gradual and standards and responsibilities begin being applied once they pass a reasonable age. So even if one is born an imperfect being, making a good human being, awareness, and adding standards and responsibilities for their actions and conduct past a reasonable age helps deal with that somewhat.


I am not using this phraseology to mock
but for ease of syntax. (as you know I don't tend to subtle when I do intend to mock)
In your opinion do the unborn go to heaven when a pregnancy terminates?

If the unborn go to heaven, exactly what is the bad thing for them about abortion?


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MarketAndChurch
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11 Jun 2011, 6:05 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
If we are conceived in Sin
and are sinful by nature.
then how are the unborn innocent?


Nature: We have a predisposition to sin or evil. The human being isn't born good.

Being "conceived" in sin means our nature is fallen from birth, and that it is an uphill battle to mold the human being into a good one. Christ wasn't born in sin because he was perfect from the beginning. Some explain it away as being hereditary since Adam and Eve, which there's some truth to... even if one doesn't believe that those two people existed, it's basically saying that the many faults with human nature has been with us for as long as we know.

The unborn are innocent because they, and all born-babies, infants, and toddlers aren't aware of their behavior. Awareness of self is gradual and standards and responsibilities begin being applied once they pass a reasonable age. So even if one is born an imperfect being, making a good human being, awareness, and adding standards and responsibilities for their actions and conduct past a reasonable age helps deal with that somewhat.


I am not using this phraseology to mock
but for ease of syntax. (as you know I don't tend to subtle when I do intend to mock)
In your opinion do the unborn go to heaven when a pregnancy terminates?


most of the principles in the torah are made for the benefit of mankind during this lifetime.

I believe the main purpose of Heaven and Hell is for the sake of ethics: that we behave ethically during this lifetime.

Whereas most cultures in the near-east and the far-east were obsessed with the next, the torah's preoccupation was with this life-time. My own beliefs are that the innocent and those whose sum-totality of their lives have been ethical and good (or haven't murdered, engaged in child sacrifice, or anything else that the Torah finds repulsive) will have ultimate reward in the next lifetime. Be it an atheist, self-described pagans, hindu's, christians, muslims, agnostics, etc.

Heaven and Hell are not as fleshed out in the torah as in the new testament, which I am partially theologically illiterate in despite growing up a christian. Maybe a theologically literate christian can chime in.


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MarketAndChurch
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11 Jun 2011, 6:08 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
If we are conceived in Sin
and are sinful by nature.
then how are the unborn innocent?


Nature: We have a predisposition to sin or evil. The human being isn't born good.

Being "conceived" in sin means our nature is fallen from birth, and that it is an uphill battle to mold the human being into a good one. Christ wasn't born in sin because he was perfect from the beginning. Some explain it away as being hereditary since Adam and Eve, which there's some truth to... even if one doesn't believe that those two people existed, it's basically saying that the many faults with human nature has been with us for as long as we know.

The unborn are innocent because they, and all born-babies, infants, and toddlers aren't aware of their behavior. Awareness of self is gradual and standards and responsibilities begin being applied once they pass a reasonable age. So even if one is born an imperfect being, making a good human being, awareness, and adding standards and responsibilities for their actions and conduct past a reasonable age helps deal with that somewhat.


I am not using this phraseology to mock
but for ease of syntax. (as you know I don't tend to subtle when I do intend to mock)
In your opinion do the unborn go to heaven when a pregnancy terminates?

If the unborn go to heaven, exactly what is the bad thing for them about abortion?


Because what makes the next lifetime in any sense meaningful, important or relevant is this lifetime.

Abortion deny's one the chance to live in this life.


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JakobVirgil
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11 Jun 2011, 6:15 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
If we are conceived in Sin
and are sinful by nature.
then how are the unborn innocent?


Nature: We have a predisposition to sin or evil. The human being isn't born good.

Being "conceived" in sin means our nature is fallen from birth, and that it is an uphill battle to mold the human being into a good one. Christ wasn't born in sin because he was perfect from the beginning. Some explain it away as being hereditary since Adam and Eve, which there's some truth to... even if one doesn't believe that those two people existed, it's basically saying that the many faults with human nature has been with us for as long as we know.

The unborn are innocent because they, and all born-babies, infants, and toddlers aren't aware of their behavior. Awareness of self is gradual and standards and responsibilities begin being applied once they pass a reasonable age. So even if one is born an imperfect being, making a good human being, awareness, and adding standards and responsibilities for their actions and conduct past a reasonable age helps deal with that somewhat.


I am not using this phraseology to mock
but for ease of syntax. (as you know I don't tend to subtle when I do intend to mock)
In your opinion do the unborn go to heaven when a pregnancy terminates?


most of the principles in the torah are made for the benefit of mankind during this lifetime.

I believe the main purpose of Heaven and Hell is for the sake of ethics: that we behave ethically during this lifetime.

Whereas most cultures in the near-east and the far-east were obsessed with the next, the torah's preoccupation was with this life-time. My own beliefs are that the innocent and those whose sum-totality of their lives have been ethical and good (or haven't murdered, engaged in child sacrifice, or anything else that the Torah finds repulsive) will have ultimate reward in the next lifetime. Be it an atheist, self-described pagans, hindu's, christians, muslims, agnostics, etc.

Heaven and Hell are not as fleshed out in the torah as in the new testament, which I am partially theologically illiterate in despite growing up a christian. Maybe a theologically literate christian can chime in.


I hope you don't take this as insult but your Xtianity is quite progressive Have you read American Religion?
by my favorite Agnostic Gnostic Jew Harold Blume?


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We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??

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Orwell
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11 Jun 2011, 6:15 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:
Adam might have "sinned" - if you hate him for denying YOU the possibility of living forever - but the repercussions of his so-called "sin" were not punishment. How was what he did a sin btw? The torah never said that they were punished for their action... it just says that God gave them two trees to chose from and each had a consequence. The consequence of knowledge and a meaningful life is pain(ultimately suffering) and death.

We would rather be fully alive and know it all (awareness) then just be a highly intelligent animal with the possibility of immortality by constantly eating from the tree of life... we opted for the former and lead a richer existence because of it. Knowledge of Good and Evil just means to know everything and know life, and that is what we opted for.

If anything, you should be thanking the character we know as Adam because death makes life meaningful; the innocent don't know anything from death.

Um... one of the two of us must be using a rather creative translation of Genesis, because that's definitely not what it says in my Bible. At all. I would be willing to bet that you are the one with an erroneous text.


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MarketAndChurch
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11 Jun 2011, 6:36 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
If we are conceived in Sin
and are sinful by nature.
then how are the unborn innocent?


Nature: We have a predisposition to sin or evil. The human being isn't born good.

Being "conceived" in sin means our nature is fallen from birth, and that it is an uphill battle to mold the human being into a good one. Christ wasn't born in sin because he was perfect from the beginning. Some explain it away as being hereditary since Adam and Eve, which there's some truth to... even if one doesn't believe that those two people existed, it's basically saying that the many faults with human nature has been with us for as long as we know.

The unborn are innocent because they, and all born-babies, infants, and toddlers aren't aware of their behavior. Awareness of self is gradual and standards and responsibilities begin being applied once they pass a reasonable age. So even if one is born an imperfect being, making a good human being, awareness, and adding standards and responsibilities for their actions and conduct past a reasonable age helps deal with that somewhat.


I am not using this phraseology to mock
but for ease of syntax. (as you know I don't tend to subtle when I do intend to mock)
In your opinion do the unborn go to heaven when a pregnancy terminates?


most of the principles in the torah are made for the benefit of mankind during this lifetime.

I believe the main purpose of Heaven and Hell is for the sake of ethics: that we behave ethically during this lifetime.

Whereas most cultures in the near-east and the far-east were obsessed with the next, the torah's preoccupation was with this life-time. My own beliefs are that the innocent and those whose sum-totality of their lives have been ethical and good (or haven't murdered, engaged in child sacrifice, or anything else that the Torah finds repulsive) will have ultimate reward in the next lifetime. Be it an atheist, self-described pagans, hindu's, christians, muslims, agnostics, etc.

Heaven and Hell are not as fleshed out in the torah as in the new testament, which I am partially theologically illiterate in despite growing up a christian. Maybe a theologically literate christian can chime in.


I hope you don't take this as insult but your Xtianity is quite progressive Have you read American Religion?
by my favorite Agnostic Gnostic Jew Harold Blume?


I'll check it out - I am not Christian btw as I don't practice it religiously and don't care much about the trinity or the authenticity of Christ being the messiah. I am just a theist now-a-days who prescribes to most judeo-christian values, and if I were to join any religion, it would be Judaism.


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