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Nazi's as Conservatives, Redux

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AstroGeek
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29 Jun 2011, 11:11 pm

ruveyn wrote:
AstroGeek wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
The Nazis were radicals. And they did not have a sense of shame, either.

For Nazis the Race and the State come first. Family was little or nothing.

ruveyn

The part about race and state are certainly true, but I don't know about the family bit. They believed in the traditional family for sure--women in the kitchen (actually part of their slogan, along with "Kirche" and "Kinder"--church and children). And of course gays were not aloud. Strikes me as somewhat reminiscent (although much more extreme, of course) of the family values you here touted by right wing groups today.


Look up Lebensborn sometime.

ruveyn

Interesting. I didn't know that.



Inuyasha
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02 Jul 2011, 12:21 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Nazism, in all fairness, was not representative of the American right, but they were still a right wing movement. They had courted Germany's military establishment (hardly of a leftist tradition), gained the support of Germany's industrial base by breaking the unions, played up to values of Germany's conservative peasant culture in rural areas, made it clear that Germany had been stabbed in the back by not only Jews, but also left wing Bolsheviks, and played up on notions of only the strong have the right to survive. I think the Nazis come across as looking far right.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Actually the use of military to get their own way is a leftist tradition, if they know the military is onboard with what they are doing. Otherwise, they trying to replace people within those groups for people that support their views to gain control.



Kraichgauer
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02 Jul 2011, 12:30 am

Inuyasha wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Nazism, in all fairness, was not representative of the American right, but they were still a right wing movement. They had courted Germany's military establishment (hardly of a leftist tradition), gained the support of Germany's industrial base by breaking the unions, played up to values of Germany's conservative peasant culture in rural areas, made it clear that Germany had been stabbed in the back by not only Jews, but also left wing Bolsheviks, and played up on notions of only the strong have the right to survive. I think the Nazis come across as looking far right.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Actually the use of military to get their own way is a leftist tradition, if they know the military is onboard with what they are doing. Otherwise, they trying to replace people within those groups for people that support their views to gain control.


The German military was hardly leftist in that time period. In fact, anyone with left wing ideas had been drummed out of the German armed forces during and even before the Nazi period.
One German officer with socialist ideas who had been missed in this purge of the German army had been Klaus Von Stauffenberg - the man who had tried to kill Hitler in the bomb plot. While there had been conservatives who had also been part of the assassination plot, the fact remains, those who remained loyal to Hitler were conservatives to a man.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Inuyasha
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02 Jul 2011, 12:35 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Nazism, in all fairness, was not representative of the American right, but they were still a right wing movement. They had courted Germany's military establishment (hardly of a leftist tradition), gained the support of Germany's industrial base by breaking the unions, played up to values of Germany's conservative peasant culture in rural areas, made it clear that Germany had been stabbed in the back by not only Jews, but also left wing Bolsheviks, and played up on notions of only the strong have the right to survive. I think the Nazis come across as looking far right.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Actually the use of military to get their own way is a leftist tradition, if they know the military is onboard with what they are doing. Otherwise, they trying to replace people within those groups for people that support their views to gain control.


The German military was hardly leftist in that time period. In fact, anyone with left wing ideas had been drummed out of the German armed forces during and even before the Nazi period.
One German officer with socialist ideas who had been missed in this purge of the German army had been Klaus Von Stauffenberg - the man who had tried to kill Hitler in the bomb plot. While there had been conservatives who had also been part of the assassination plot, the fact remains, those who remained loyal to Hitler were conservatives to a man.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


As I said before, it was about power, both the Socialists and the Nazis are leftists, however the Nazis viewed anyone whom wasn't lockstep with them on every issue to be the enemy. As they gained power they were more and more afraid of someone trying to challenge their grip on power and thus the resulting purges.



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02 Jul 2011, 12:42 am

Inuyasha wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Nazism, in all fairness, was not representative of the American right, but they were still a right wing movement. They had courted Germany's military establishment (hardly of a leftist tradition), gained the support of Germany's industrial base by breaking the unions, played up to values of Germany's conservative peasant culture in rural areas, made it clear that Germany had been stabbed in the back by not only Jews, but also left wing Bolsheviks, and played up on notions of only the strong have the right to survive. I think the Nazis come across as looking far right.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Actually the use of military to get their own way is a leftist tradition, if they know the military is onboard with what they are doing. Otherwise, they trying to replace people within those groups for people that support their views to gain control.


The German military was hardly leftist in that time period. In fact, anyone with left wing ideas had been drummed out of the German armed forces during and even before the Nazi period.
One German officer with socialist ideas who had been missed in this purge of the German army had been Klaus Von Stauffenberg - the man who had tried to kill Hitler in the bomb plot. While there had been conservatives who had also been part of the assassination plot, the fact remains, those who remained loyal to Hitler were conservatives to a man.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


As I said before, it was about power, both the Socialists and the Nazis are leftists, however the Nazis viewed anyone whom wasn't lockstep with them on every issue to be the enemy. As they gained power they were more and more afraid of someone trying to challenge their grip on power and thus the resulting purges.


The idea that the Nazis were a socialist party by the time Hitler came to power is a myth. When they had first started out, they had tried to attract both right wing nationalists, and left wing socialists. In the end, only one side could win out, and that was the right, represented by Hitler. Joseph Goebbels, once a socialist, had changed his whole way of thinking, as he was so enamored with Hitler. The fact remains, it was communists and socialists who ended up in concentration camps, while members of right wing groups predating the Nazis, such as the Freikorps, remained free, even though Hitler hardly considered them to be marching in lockstep with the Nazis.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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02 Jul 2011, 12:48 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Nazism, in all fairness, was not representative of the American right, but they were still a right wing movement. They had courted Germany's military establishment (hardly of a leftist tradition), gained the support of Germany's industrial base by breaking the unions, played up to values of Germany's conservative peasant culture in rural areas, made it clear that Germany had been stabbed in the back by not only Jews, but also left wing Bolsheviks, and played up on notions of only the strong have the right to survive. I think the Nazis come across as looking far right.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Actually the use of military to get their own way is a leftist tradition, if they know the military is onboard with what they are doing. Otherwise, they trying to replace people within those groups for people that support their views to gain control.


The German military was hardly leftist in that time period. In fact, anyone with left wing ideas had been drummed out of the German armed forces during and even before the Nazi period.
One German officer with socialist ideas who had been missed in this purge of the German army had been Klaus Von Stauffenberg - the man who had tried to kill Hitler in the bomb plot. While there had been conservatives who had also been part of the assassination plot, the fact remains, those who remained loyal to Hitler were conservatives to a man.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


As I said before, it was about power, both the Socialists and the Nazis are leftists, however the Nazis viewed anyone whom wasn't lockstep with them on every issue to be the enemy. As they gained power they were more and more afraid of someone trying to challenge their grip on power and thus the resulting purges.


The idea that the Nazis were a socialist party by the time Hitler came to power is a myth. When they had first started out, they had tried to attract both right wing nationalists, and left wing socialists. In the end, only one side could win out, and that was the right, represented by Hitler. Joseph Goebbels, once a socialist, had changed his whole way of thinking, as he was so enamored with Hitler. The fact remains, it was communists and socialists who ended up in concentration camps, while members of right wing groups predating the Nazis, such as the Freikorps, remained free, even though Hitler hardly considered them to be marching in lockstep with the Nazis.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


That doesn't mean the Nazis were right-wing nor does it mean they were conservatives. You are missing the point, the Nazis viewed the Socialists and Communists as a threat to their power, nevermind the fact they agreed on a lot of things. Hitler didn't actively go after some right wing groups because they were considered trivial. The Nazi party became the only legal party in Germany, so the party you mentioned was disbanded, though its members may have been prominent enough in society that going after them would cause a lot of people to balk.



Kraichgauer
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02 Jul 2011, 12:56 am

Inuyasha wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Nazism, in all fairness, was not representative of the American right, but they were still a right wing movement. They had courted Germany's military establishment (hardly of a leftist tradition), gained the support of Germany's industrial base by breaking the unions, played up to values of Germany's conservative peasant culture in rural areas, made it clear that Germany had been stabbed in the back by not only Jews, but also left wing Bolsheviks, and played up on notions of only the strong have the right to survive. I think the Nazis come across as looking far right.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Actually the use of military to get their own way is a leftist tradition, if they know the military is onboard with what they are doing. Otherwise, they trying to replace people within those groups for people that support their views to gain control.


The German military was hardly leftist in that time period. In fact, anyone with left wing ideas had been drummed out of the German armed forces during and even before the Nazi period.
One German officer with socialist ideas who had been missed in this purge of the German army had been Klaus Von Stauffenberg - the man who had tried to kill Hitler in the bomb plot. While there had been conservatives who had also been part of the assassination plot, the fact remains, those who remained loyal to Hitler were conservatives to a man.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


As I said before, it was about power, both the Socialists and the Nazis are leftists, however the Nazis viewed anyone whom wasn't lockstep with them on every issue to be the enemy. As they gained power they were more and more afraid of someone trying to challenge their grip on power and thus the resulting purges.


The idea that the Nazis were a socialist party by the time Hitler came to power is a myth. When they had first started out, they had tried to attract both right wing nationalists, and left wing socialists. In the end, only one side could win out, and that was the right, represented by Hitler. Joseph Goebbels, once a socialist, had changed his whole way of thinking, as he was so enamored with Hitler. The fact remains, it was communists and socialists who ended up in concentration camps, while members of right wing groups predating the Nazis, such as the Freikorps, remained free, even though Hitler hardly considered them to be marching in lockstep with the Nazis.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


That doesn't mean the Nazis were right-wing nor does it mean they were conservatives. You are missing the point, the Nazis viewed the Socialists and Communists as a threat to their power, nevermind the fact they agreed on a lot of things. Hitler didn't actively go after some right wing groups because they were considered trivial. The Nazi party became the only legal party in Germany, so the party you mentioned was disbanded, though its members may have been prominent enough in society that going after them would cause a lot of people to balk.


As a matter of fact, many members of the right wing Freikorps, and other right wing nationalist groups joined the ranks of the Nazis. I seriously doubt any of these guys, who associated the left as the enemy would have joined a leftist organization - if the Nazis were in fact one.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



91
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02 Jul 2011, 1:10 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Actually the use of military to get their own way is a leftist tradition, if they know the military is onboard with what they are doing. Otherwise, they trying to replace people within those groups for people that support their views to gain control.


The German military was hardly leftist in that time period. In fact, anyone with left wing ideas had been drummed out of the German armed forces during and even before the Nazi period.
One German officer with socialist ideas who had been missed in this purge of the German army had been Klaus Von Stauffenberg - the man who had tried to kill Hitler in the bomb plot. While there had been conservatives who had also been part of the assassination plot, the fact remains, those who remained loyal to Hitler were conservatives to a man.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer[/quote]

The Wehrmacht is not the Nazi party; nor is it an extension of the Nazi Party. The German Military was conservative (in the Junker tradition), it was also the locus of most of the real opposition to the regime. It would be a mistake to think that Junker politics and Nazi ideology can be used as interchangeable terms.


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02 Jul 2011, 1:39 am

91 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Actually the use of military to get their own way is a leftist tradition, if they know the military is onboard with what they are doing. Otherwise, they trying to replace people within those groups for people that support their views to gain control.


The German military was hardly leftist in that time period. In fact, anyone with left wing ideas had been drummed out of the German armed forces during and even before the Nazi period.
One German officer with socialist ideas who had been missed in this purge of the German army had been Klaus Von Stauffenberg - the man who had tried to kill Hitler in the bomb plot. While there had been conservatives who had also been part of the assassination plot, the fact remains, those who remained loyal to Hitler were conservatives to a man.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


The Wehrmacht is not the Nazi party; nor is it an extension of the Nazi Party. The German Military was conservative (in the Junker tradition), it was also the locus of most of the real opposition to the regime. It would be a mistake to think that Junker politics and Nazi ideology can be used as interchangeable terms.[/quote]

To be sure. I hope I didn't give the misimpression that the old time Junkers serving in the Wehrmacht were synonymous with the Nazis. In fact, most of the military officers who took part in the attempt to kill Hitler were of this military tradition. The point I had been attempting to make was that the German officer corps could hardly have been associated with the left.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



91
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03 Jul 2011, 12:09 am

^^^^^

I was not claiming the Nazi Party was a left wing entity, just that I don't think it fits as a right wing entitty. There are just too many Nazi policiesnthat don't fit.... Hence my statement about attempting to bash a square peg into a round hole.


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03 Jul 2011, 7:48 pm

91 wrote:
I was not claiming the Nazi Party was a left wing entity, just that I don't think it fits as a right wing entitty. There are just too many Nazi policiesnthat don't fit.... Hence my statement about attempting to bash a square peg into a round hole.

The Nazis were a more radical breed of German right, right-wing authoritarian/totalitarian. We can't simply dump contemporary U.S. notions of left-vs.-right, liberal-vs.-conservative onto the Nazis and Wiemar Germany. The name National Socialist German Workers' Party suggest that the Nazis at least once had a link to some form of socialism and labor activism. It also had a long history before Adolf Hitler's ascendancy to power in the party and then over the German state as a whole. The various leaders and lieutenants had their own eccentricities: Some wanted to promote the height of German culture through works like Wagner's operas; others wanted to restore a Nordic, Germanic neo-paganism; others saw preserving the Christian faith as a useful tool of social control; a traditional family was seen as a way of instilling "moral character" (focusing on warrior "virtues") into Aryan youth and preparing a new generation of soldiers. Nazi ideology grew to be dominated by themes of a pure Aryan race and anti-Semitism (the "national society" of Germany being racially defined in Hitler's works). The most consistent facet was a blind obedience to authority.



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03 Jul 2011, 7:55 pm

It should be remembered, when either the right or the left goes to the extreme, they'll go full circle till meeting the other. Hence the right wing Nazis bearing certain resemblance to the far left.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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03 Jul 2011, 8:20 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
It should be remembered, when either the right or the left goes to the extreme, they'll go full circle till meeting the other. Hence the right wing Nazis bearing certain resemblance to the far left.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I am starting to agree... the only real differences are is who gets shot and the pretense.

NeantHumain wrote:
a traditional family was seen as a way of instilling "moral character" (focusing on warrior "virtues") into Aryan youth and preparing a new generation of soldiers. Nazi ideology


The Nazi party did not support the traditional family in the way you are describing. In point of fact, great effort was made to separate children from the values of their parents through the Hitler Youth. The leader of the organization was Baldur von Schirach, a vicious anti-Christian and a sympathizer to Ernst Rohm's unorthodox concepts of relationships. The idea that Schirach was leading an organization intent on preserving the traditional power of the family in Germany does not stand up to scrutiny.


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05 Jul 2011, 8:00 pm

91 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
It should be remembered, when either the right or the left goes to the extreme, they'll go full circle till meeting the other. Hence the right wing Nazis bearing certain resemblance to the far left.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I am starting to agree... the only real differences are is who gets shot and the pretense.

NeantHumain wrote:
a traditional family was seen as a way of instilling "moral character" (focusing on warrior "virtues") into Aryan youth and preparing a new generation of soldiers. Nazi ideology


The Nazi party did not support the traditional family in the way you are describing. In point of fact, great effort was made to separate children from the values of their parents through the Hitler Youth. The leader of the organization was Baldur von Schirach, a vicious anti-Christian and a sympathizer to Ernst Rohm's unorthodox concepts of relationships. The idea that Schirach was leading an organization intent on preserving the traditional power of the family in Germany does not stand up to scrutiny.


I'm starting to think there is a splite between European Rightwing and US Rightwing, because last I checked the American Right want a limited Federal Government, not an authoritarian one.



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05 Jul 2011, 8:29 pm

Yes, Inuyasha, the party that brought us the patriot act does not want an authoritarian state.


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05 Jul 2011, 8:41 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Yes, Inuyasha, the party that brought us the patriot act does not want an authoritarian state.


The Patriot Act was designed to catch Terrorists infiltrating the country, it was not intended to be used on the citizens of this country. Could it have been better, yeah, but it was a hapslash bill that was thrown together in a rush following 9/11.