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marshall
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11 Jul 2011, 1:04 pm

As for my views. As long as I can remember I've always felt a sense of outrage at inequity and injustice. As young as 4 years old I'd observe that the NT world is not based on values of merit or fairness, but on nepotism and crony hierarchies. It baffled and outraged me that in NT group play in the sandbox, the kids with the higher standing in the social hierarchy demanded their "right" to hoard the best toys for the longest period of time. Therefore it seems only natural that someone on the spectrum would be more sympathetic to left-wing economic ideals that at least attempt to aim for those values (regardless of what actually occurs in practice). That's not to say that the left isn't ever mistaken in it's assessment of society or impractical in it's attempts to pursue their values. I'm pragmatic terms I am more centrist than some of the more far-left posters here, but ultimately I will always be more sympathetic to the values of people on the left than to those on the right.



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11 Jul 2011, 1:07 pm

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
Eh, I think it's just a difference in military traditions, to own the truth. In the American military, there is very little tolerance for people who don't even try to pull their crap together, so they wouldn't be naturally sympathetic toward a program that seems to cosset people who are really just lazy and unwilling to help themselves. They did just fine sleeping in a crowded barracks with a hundred other guys snoring and talking in their sleep, and then they did even better sleeping in a hole in the ground, living on field rations. To hear some idiot complaining as if the world is coming to an end because he doesn't live in a three-bedroom apartment and eat six meals of fresh produce a day and sip every morning on fresh brewed Starbucks is outright annoying.

But, at the same time, I think the American military does a pretty good job of emphasizing ideas like social harmony, secular values and inclusiveness. I'm not sure I'm right on all that, but I just can't see someone who worked for the US Army being especially prone to bigotry. After you've shared a foxhole and been shot at next to a closeted gay black guy who speaks in three different languages and observes some weird religion you never even heard of and been forced to realize that he'd die for you in a heartbeat, it probably takes more effort to continue being a bigot than it does to learn to be more open-minded.

I mean, I'm on the outside looking in, but that's the impression I get of the US military.


That's a pretty good impression. I grew up in a nearly all white town, my first real exposure to people of other races and backgrounds was the military. I realized that people are people wherever they're from or what they look like and that no matter where you go you get good people and some not so good people. An a**hole is an a**hole no matter what color he is.



Philologos
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11 Jul 2011, 1:15 pm

marshall wrote:
WilliamWDelaney wrote:
To say, "I have the views I do because I think logically," strikes me as self-serving, ego-stroking, phony-sounding bull hockey. I find it offensive and arrogant, so I think that I am perfectly justified in calling Ruveyn out here. I think he owes us an explanation. You know, just because we don't have rules against it doesn't mean it's respectful.

It's not offensive because it's arrogant. It's offensive because it's both arrogant AND blatently UNreasoned. He sounds just like any other Randroid who makes hollow proclaimations that their foundational moral axioms are somehow more grounded in logic than those of others.


That is NOT what was said. Nor implied. And as for the really stupid "Randroid" appellation, I got tired of it the second time I heard of. I do not know who invented it, but it is rather stupid. Followers of the certainly obnoxious Rand are NOT automata nor at all like, and a rabblerousing Schimpfwort that has no basis in sense is simply - senseless.



number5
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11 Jul 2011, 1:17 pm

Bleeding heart liberal here. My family always voted democratic, but they often didn't walk the walk. To be honest, they were kinda racist and hated taxes more than anything. I think my own experiences have contributed more to my outlook than anything else. I've been broke. I've had loved ones loose everything to medical bills. I've lived in poor, urban areas as well as out in the cornfields and in the midst of suburbia. My family members have/had many different religions. Etc.

I think having a personal connection to various life situations has helped me to empathize with a more diverse population. This is something that I don't believe the republicans are generally capable of. They often seem to have a real problem putting the shoe on the other foot. Not all of them, of course, but it's real easy to say cut welfare, cut education, ban gay marriage, prohibit abortion, etc., when your family's secure, your kid goes to private school, you don't associate with "the gays," and you've never known a woman who died from a back-alley abortion.

I'd also like to say that I like Ruveyn and I think some of you are being a bit harsh. Sure, I disagree with him on most things, and in spite of his callous demeanor, I think he's a good person. He's admitted to a good amount of charitable contribution so I think he may be just a little bit full of crap when he says things like lazy and weak people should rot. I think his problem is more with anyone (government) forcing contribution, and he has full right to voice this aversion. But basically I think he's sort of a live and let live kind of guy and I respect that.



marshall
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11 Jul 2011, 1:27 pm

Philologos wrote:
marshall wrote:
WilliamWDelaney wrote:
To say, "I have the views I do because I think logically," strikes me as self-serving, ego-stroking, phony-sounding bull hockey. I find it offensive and arrogant, so I think that I am perfectly justified in calling Ruveyn out here. I think he owes us an explanation. You know, just because we don't have rules against it doesn't mean it's respectful.

It's not offensive because it's arrogant. It's offensive because it's both arrogant AND blatently UNreasoned. He sounds just like any other Randroid who makes hollow proclaimations that their foundational moral axioms are somehow more grounded in logic than those of others.


That is NOT what was said. Nor implied. And as for the really stupid "Randroid" appellation, I got tired of it the second time I heard of. I do not know who invented it, but it is rather stupid. Followers of the certainly obnoxious Rand are NOT automata nor at all like, and a rabblerousing Schimpfwort that has no basis in sense is simply - senseless.


I think it is a perfectly valid observation that people with hard core social darwinist libertarian leanings like to trumpet their "superior logic" on merit-less grounds. It is also a valid observation that Ruveyn fits the mold. Also, I'm not taking a single post of his in isolation. I'm a pattern thinker, not a concrete literal thinker, so I tend to notice patterns in personality types. And I'll use the term "Randroid" to describe heartless misanthropic people with an unjustified superiority complex if I damned well please.

Oh. and a true follower of Rand should not find the term "Randroid" disparaging. They tend to have a great sense of pride in their heartlessness.



91
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11 Jul 2011, 1:41 pm

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
Eh, I think it's just a difference in military traditions, to own the truth. In the American military, there is very little tolerance for people who don't even try to pull their crap together


I have only served on exercises with the US. So I only got a sneak peak into their culture. There certainly was more individualism when compared to the Aussies. The Aussie practice was to focus on the idea that sometimes thte unit carries you, sometimes you carry the unit and I know Americans do that but the Yanks seemed to be, in broad stokes, lone rangers while the Aussies were mates. I also found the American troops were more prone to standing over one another, getting in one another's personal space more often. I did however find them to be highly professional and well trained, if badly fed (I will never eat a US rat pack again)


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11 Jul 2011, 1:44 pm

As much as I know why I believe what I believe, I find it difficult to explain, so I won't bother.


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Philologos
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11 Jul 2011, 1:54 pm

marshall wrote:

I think it is a perfectly valid observation that people with hard core social darwinist libertarian leanings like to trumpet their "superior logic" on merit-less grounds. It is also a valid observation that Ruveyn fits the mold. Also, I'm not taking a single post of his in isolation. I'm a pattern thinker, not a concrete literal thinker, so I tend to notice patterns in personality types. And I'll use the term "Randroid" to describe heartless misanthropic people with an unjustified superiority complex if I damned well please.

Oh. and a true follower of Rand should not find the term "Randroid" disparaging. They tend to have a great sense of pride in their heartlessness.


I am myself a pattern thinker - it is hard for me to calll anything else "thought".

Neither I nor ruveyn claimed our views stem from "superior" logic - only that they are reached by way of logic. If ruveyn is hard core social darwinist libertarian, I would not know. I am certainly not. It is logical to say what you have said ONLY if you make the unwarranted assumption that ALL people who claim to be logical are "hard core social darwinist libertarians".

ruveyn is a rather absolutist materialist - which I am not. But if he has praised Rand it has been in politischen postings I have not bothered to read.

As for your use of a stupid word, it is your right to do stupid things. And it is your privilege in this setting to say offensive things.

I do not care a fig whether "Randroid" is meant by A to be disparaging or heard by B as disparaging. I care that it makes no sense. I even care that you obviously have not read adequately in the android - focussed sections of sci fi. It is a misuse of language and that - to misquote - diminishes me because I am involved with languages.



WilliamWDelaney
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11 Jul 2011, 2:00 pm

marshall wrote:
Oh. and a true follower of Rand should not find the term "Randroid" disparaging. They tend to have a great sense of pride in their heartlessness.
I don't think they're anywhere near as heartless as they are sheltered, frankly. They don't seem to have any concept of the world outside of the totally abstract. There is no connection in their heads, it seems, between theory and real life. There doesn't seem to be very much concept of empiricism in the Randroid.

All a Randroid has to do is face some actual full-blooded adversity, and they are cured of being a Randroid. When being on the brink of dying of malnutrition-related illness is a scar on your mind rather than a fairy tale off in the foggy distance, it changes your outlook.

Some army guys might have some libertarian views, but Randroids are about as much like a battle-hardened soldier as a pampered, middle-class white boy who has too much time on his hands is like a CRIP.



Last edited by WilliamWDelaney on 11 Jul 2011, 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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11 Jul 2011, 2:12 pm

It was mostly my upbringing, observation of what makes people tick and my internal locus of control that shaped my political views, but that's still just scratching the surface. I used to be very left wing but I eventually became a right winger. I grew up in the inner city in an abusive household so I've always had to rely on myself and face adversity head on. Because of that I value impulse control, emotional control, mental toughness, adaptability, maturity and self-reliance very highly.

I believe whatever help goes out to the disadvantaged should be geared towards helping them help themselves rather than just merely sustaining them. Instilling self-reliance rather than just enabling dependency is the way to go in the long term. Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime.

Generally my political views are very syncretic. I believe the family unit is the fabric that holds society together. I don't see things in a victim and villain fashion but as mutual affairs so rather than give more power to one side than the other, they should both act as checks and balances against each other. Unions and corporations for example should act as checks and balances against each other rather than just overregulating the crap out of the economy or resorting to union busting. Although private charity is more efficient than social welfare, the quality control isn't as universal so a safety net is still necessary. Besides basic economic regulations that protect us from deforestation, sweat shops, pollution, etc. a free market is essential to granting autonomy to people. The economy should be put on a leash, not in a chokehold.

Anyways that's as much as I can say for now. There's no cut and dried way that I arrived at my views so once again it's just scratching the surface.



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11 Jul 2011, 2:24 pm

WilliamWDelaney wrote:

Otherwise, perhaps we should all conclude that you were just being arrogant, in which case I await your apology and humble retraction. I have too little confidence in your good manners to ever expect this, but it bears mentioning.

.


I was born arrogant and don't hold your breath waiting for an apology, for you will turn blue and pass out. I don't apologize as apology is a sign of weakness. My manners are impeccable. I say "thank you" and "please" and I hold the door open for old ladies.

I am guided by my own light. That is the light I see.

ruveyn



marshall
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11 Jul 2011, 3:02 pm

Philologos wrote:
marshall wrote:
I think it is a perfectly valid observation that people with hard core social darwinist libertarian leanings like to trumpet their "superior logic" on merit-less grounds. It is also a valid observation that Ruveyn fits the mold. Also, I'm not taking a single post of his in isolation. I'm a pattern thinker, not a concrete literal thinker, so I tend to notice patterns in personality types. And I'll use the term "Randroid" to describe heartless misanthropic people with an unjustified superiority complex if I damned well please.

Oh. and a true follower of Rand should not find the term "Randroid" disparaging. They tend to have a great sense of pride in their heartlessness.


I am myself a pattern thinker - it is hard for me to calll anything else "thought".

Neither I nor ruveyn claimed our views stem from "superior" logic - only that they are reached by way of logic.

The thing is base political views are not and cannot be reached by way of logic. Logic only guaruntees self-consitency, nothing more, nothing less. Subjective values are what guide political views. It is intellectually dishonest to claim that your subjective views were arrived at through a logical deduction or inference. Also, the emotion driven idealist is not necessarily illogical. They may be impractical but that is not the same as being illogical.

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If ruveyn is hard core social darwinist libertarian, I would not know. I am certainly not. It is logical to say what you have said ONLY if you make the unwarranted assumption that ALL people who claim to be logical are "hard core social darwinist libertarians".

I never claimed you were. I was addressing Ruveyn. Also, I never claimed that ALL people who claim to be logical are social darwinists. I only claimed that heartless social darwinists like Ruveyn have a proclivity to falsely assume they are more rational by virtue of their heartlessness. Being cold and unsympathetic does not make one more objective or logical. It merely makes one cold and unsympathetic. And please don't say that I am calling Ruveyn cold and unsympathetic as an insult. Regardless of whether he truly is IRL what he claims, that IS the identity he likes to project here with his views.

Quote:
ruveyn is a rather absolutist materialist - which I am not. But if he has praised Rand it has been in politischen postings I have not bothered to read.

As far as I know he isn't a follower of Ayn Rand nor does he endorse her philosophy in the literal sense (very few do), but his politics are similar enough.

Quote:
As for your use of a stupid word, it is your right to do stupid things. And it is your privilege in this setting to say offensive things.

I do not care a fig whether "Randroid" is meant by A to be disparaging or heard by B as disparaging. I care that it makes no sense. I even care that you obviously have not read adequately in the android - focussed sections of sci fi. It is a misuse of language and that - to misquote - diminishes me because I am involved with languages.

Ruveyn gets off on calling less privilidged people lazy and weak or stupid proles. I get off on calling stubborn elitist black-and-white thinking social Darwinists Randroids. Call it even.



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11 Jul 2011, 3:58 pm

Well its really a joke to me now......I mean yeah I used to think we had a government that was ran the way a government should be and pretty much supported it, I used to buy into the anti-abortion(in all cases) propaganda and anti-gay propaganda when I was middle school aged......After that due to life experiance and new knowledge I realised I personally saw nothing wrong with being gay or abortions in some cases and then I kinda started thinking maybe I was more democrat leaning......but then of course I decided that was not a whole lot different then the republican party so I expressed a liking for more socialist veiws for a while. During all this I kind of thought simple votes and political action would eventually be enough to change things for the better......But now I do not think there is anything worth saving as far as our government/corporate fascism system goes. I guess I could be described more or less as an anarchist because I think the whole system needs to be done away with. If that takes place I am not sure exactly what I will support but I do not support the current system that is for sure.



Last edited by Sweetleaf on 11 Jul 2011, 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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11 Jul 2011, 4:00 pm

I won them in a raffle.

I gave my old ones to charity


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Philologos
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11 Jul 2011, 4:22 pm

marshall wrote:
The thing is base political views are not and cannot be reached by way of logic.


Well of course all logic works from premises whic are not themselves logically sourced. That goes without saying. So you want the primes, not the political views? Should say so. Again I cannot speak for ruveyn. My ultimate primes are a. postulates hardwired into my mind and conscience - we are constructed to recognize certain things as right or wrong b. early inputs from my mother and some others positively received and consistent with conscience - like the wrongness of working to change others' beliefs c. early inputs from my mother and some others negatively received, like the rightness of accepting authority unqustioned, which I cannot do.

Is that good enough? From then on, it is logic - data - reanalysis - data - recompute....

marshall wrote:
And please don't say that I am calling Ruveyn cold and unsympathetic as an insult.


Why would I? That is a fairly reasonable characterization of his here persona.

marshall wrote:

Ruveyn gets off on calling less privilidged people lazy and weak or stupid proles. I get off on calling stubborn elitist black-and-white thinking social Darwinists Randroids. Call it even.


I have already said you have the right to say that which is stupid, that which is false, and if WP allows it is your privilege to say that which is offensive / obscene.

Take what you want - and pay for it, says God. It says something about your value system.



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11 Jul 2011, 6:28 pm

I became a libertarian after years of writing software that the government buys.