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iamnotaparakeet
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12 Aug 2011, 6:54 pm

Although from 2007, it still has some bearing upon whether there is interest in He3 by governments at least, even though since then America's government based space program seems to have pretty much been murdered....

http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/19296/

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Mining the Moon

Lab experiments suggest that future fusion reactors could use helium-3 gathered from the moon.

At the 21st century's start, few would have predicted that by 2007, a second race for the moon would be under way. Yet the signs are that this is now the case. Furthermore, in today's moon race, unlike the one that took place between the United States and the U.S.S.R. in the 1960s, a full roster of 21st-century global powers, including China and India, are competing.

Even more surprising is that one reason for much of the interest appears to be plans to mine helium-3--purportedly an ideal fuel for fusion reactors but almost unavailable on Earth--from the moon's surface. NASA's Vision for Space Exploration has U.S. astronauts scheduled to be back on the moon in 2020 and permanently staffing a base there by 2024. While the U.S. space agency has neither announced nor denied any desire to mine helium-3, it has nevertheless placed advocates of mining He3 in influential positions. For its part, Russia claims that the aim of any lunar program of its own--for what it's worth, the rocket corporation Energia recently started blustering, Soviet-style, that it will build a permanent moon base by 2015-2020--will be extracting He3.

The Chinese, too, apparently believe that helium-3 from the moon can enable fusion plants on Earth. This fall, the People's Republic expects to orbit a satellite around the moon and then land an unmanned vehicle there in 2011.

Nor does India intend to be left out. (See "India's Space Ambitions Soar.") This past spring, its president, A.P.J. Kalam, and its prime minister, Manmohan Singh, made major speeches asserting that, besides constructing giant solar collectors in orbit and on the moon, the world's largest democracy likewise intends to mine He3 from the lunar surface. India's probe, Chandrayaan-1, will take off next year, and ISRO, the Indian Space Research Organization, is talking about sending Chandrayaan-2, a surface rover, in 2010 or 2011. Simultaneously, Japan and Germany are also making noises about launching their own moon missions at around that time, and talking up the possibility of mining He3 and bringing it back to fuel fusion-based nuclear reactors on Earth.
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Could He3 from the moon truly be a feasible solution to our power needs on Earth? Practical nuclear fusion is nowadays projected to be five decades off--the same prediction that was made at the 1958 Atoms for Peace conference in Brussels. If fusion power's arrival date has remained constantly 50 years away since 1958, why would helium-3 suddenly make fusion power more feasible?

Advocates of He3-based fusion point to the fact that current efforts to develop fusion-based power generation, like the ITER megaproject, use the deuterium-tritium fuel cycle, which is problematical. (See "International Fusion Research.") Deuterium and tritium are both hydrogen isotopes, and when they're fused in a superheated plasma, two nuclei come together to create a helium nucleus--consisting of two protons and two neutrons--and a high-energy neutron. A deuterium-tritium fusion reaction releases 80 percent of its energy in a stream of high-energy neutrons, which are highly destructive for anything they hit, including a reactor's containment vessel. Since tritium is highly radioactive, that makes containment a big problem as structures weaken and need to be replaced. Thus, whatever materials are used in a deuterium-tritium fusion power plant will have to endure serious punishment. And if that's achievable, when that fusion reactor is eventually decommissioned, there will still be a lot of radioactive waste.

Helium-3 advocates claim that it, conversely, would be nonradioactive, obviating all those problems. But a serious critic has charged that in reality, He3-based fusion isn't even a feasible option. In the August issue of Physics World, theoretical physicist Frank Close, at Oxford in the UK, has published an article called "Fears Over Factoids" in which, among other things, he summarizes some claims of the "helium aficionados," then dismisses those claims as essentially fantasy.

Close points out that in a tokamak--a machine that generates a doughnut-shaped magnetic field to confine the superheated plasmas necessary for fusion--deuterium reacts up to 100 times more slowly with helium-3 than it does with tritium. In a plasma contained in a tokamak, Close stresses, all the nuclei in the fuel get mixed together, so what's most probable is that two deuterium nuclei will rapidly fuse and produce a tritium nucleus and proton. That tritium, in turn, will likely fuse with deuterium and finally yield one helium-4 atom and a neutron. In short, Close says, if helium-3 is mined from the moon and brought to Earth, in a standard tokamak the final result will still be deuterium-tritium fusion.

Second, Close rejects the claim that two helium-3 nuclei could realistically be made to fuse with each other to produce deuterium, an alpha particle and energy. That reaction occurs even more slowly than deuterium-tritium fusion, and the fuel would have to be heated to impractically high temperatures--six times the heat of the sun's interior, by some calculations--that would be beyond the reach of any tokamak. Hence, Close concludes, "the lunar-helium-3 story is, to my mind, moonshine."

Close's objection, however, assumes that deuterium-helium-3 fusion and pure helium-3 fusion would take place in tokamak-based reactors. There might be alternatives: for example, Gerald Kulcinski, a professor of nuclear engineering at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, has maintained the only helium-3 fusion reactor in the world on an annual budget that's barely into six figures.

Kulcinski's He3-based fusion reactor, located in the Fusion Technology Institute at the University of Wisconsin, is very small. When running, it contains a spherical plasma roughly 10 centimeters in diameter that can produce sustained fusion with 200 million reactions per second. To produce a milliwatt of power, unfortunately, the reactor consumes a kilowatt. Close's response is, therefore, valid enough: "When practical fusion occurs with a demonstrated net power output, I--and the world's fusion community--can take note."

Still, that critique applies equally to ITER and the tokamak-based reactor effort, which also haven't yet achieved breakeven (the point at which a fusion reactor produces as much energy as it consumes). What's significant about the reactor in Wisconsin is that, as Kulcinski says, "We are doing both deuterium-He3 and He3-He3 reactions. We run deuterium-He3 fusion reactions daily, so we are very familiar with that reaction. We are also doing He3-He3 because if we can control that, it will have immense potential."

The reactor at the Fusion Technology Institute uses a technology called inertial electrostatic confinement (IEC). Kulcinski explains: "If we used a tokamak to do deuterium-helium-3, it would need to be bigger than the ITER device, which already is stretching the bounds of credibility. Our IEC devices, on the other hand, are tabletop-sized, and during our deuterium-He3 runs, we do get some neutrons produced by side reaction with deuterium." Nevertheless, Kulcinski continues, when side reactions occur that involve two deuterium nuclei fusing to produce a tritium nucleus and proton, the tritium produced is at such a higher energy level than the confinement system that it immediately escapes. "Consequently, the radioactivity in our deuterium-He3 system is only 2 percent of the radioactivity in a deuterium-tritium system."

More significant is the He3-He3 fusion reaction that Kulcinski and his assistants produce with their IEC-based reactor. In Kulcinski's reactor, two helium-3 nuclei, each with two protons and one neutron, instead fuse to produce one helium-4 nucleus, consisting of two protons and two neutrons, and two highly energetic protons.

"He3-He3 is not an easy reaction to promote," Kulcinski says. "But He3-He3 fusion has the greatest potential." That's because helium-3, unlike tritium, is nonradioactive, which, first, means that Kulcinski's reactor doesn't need the massive containment vessel that deuterium-tritium fusion requires. Second, the protons it produces--unlike the neutrons produced by deuterium-tritium reactions--possess charges and can be contained using electric and magnetic fields, which in turn results in direct electricity generation. Kulcinski says that one of his graduate assistants at the Fusion Technology Institute is working on a solid-state device to capture the protons and convert their energy directly into electricity.

Still, Kulcinski's reactor proves only the theoretical feasibility and advantages of He3-He3 fusion, with commercial viability lying decades in the future. "Currently," he says, "the Department of Energy will tell us, 'We'll make fusion work. But you're never going to go back to the moon, and that's the only way you'll get massive amounts of helium-3. So forget it.' Meanwhile, the NASA folks tell us, 'We can get the helium-3. But you'll never get fusion to work.' So DOE doesn't think NASA can do its job, NASA doesn't think that DOE can do its job, and we're in between trying to get the two to work together." Right now, Kulcinski's funding comes from two wealthy individuals who are, he says, only interested in the research and without expectation of financial profit.

Overall, then, helium-3 is not the low-hanging fruit among potential fuels to create practical fusion power, and it's one that we will have to reach the moon to pluck. That said, if pure He3-based fusion power is realizable, it would have immense advantages.



ruveyn
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12 Aug 2011, 9:09 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Fnord wrote:

Nothing against astronomy but it is not going to pay the bills.

But your second point- if you're saying what it sounds like you're saying- that the moon has a kind of hydrogen not found on Earth that could make cold fusion possible - then what are we waiting for? Sounds like a good investment.


He is helium, H is hydrogen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium-3#Fusion_reactions


2H1 + 3H1 (D-T) → 4He2 + 10n 17.571 MeV .057
This is the biggest fusion energy yield of any reaction involving Helium or Hydrogren

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He3#Thermo ... properties

Astronomy can show us another place to live when we use up the earth.

ruveyn



techn0teen
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12 Aug 2011, 10:09 pm

Due to the zero gravity environment of space, it would be easier and less expensive to manufacture certain chemicals, materials, and objects that require a lot of lifting of heavy materials during assembly. Many innovations have been credited for space exploration such as microwaves, specialized tubbing, improved storage cans, easier time launching communication systems, advancements in computers, insight to the cardiovascular system, and various chemical converting machinery.

In that way, it is possible to get a return on a capital investment but it is higher risk investment. Many good investments are high risk.

What's up with all the discussions on space exploration and colonizing here? (Not that I am complaining. I love the concept, and I think we need it to survive as a species)



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12 Aug 2011, 10:21 pm

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Astronomy can show us another place to live when we use up the earth.


It's sad that people would let it get to that point. I will do anything in my power, as small as it might be, to prevent that. I am more of an optimist. Space exploration would show us how to preserve resources and be self sustaining while still maintaining growth and innovation. If there is anything that would let us learn growth while being respectful of the environment and resources, it is space exploration.

I actually argue that long-term space exploration success would not be possible if a consumerism economy was the main thing powering it. To successfully venture space, one must treat resources wisely and think more long-term with resources rather than short-term.

And then what happens if we consume the resources on Earth, the moon, and outward until we did not have enough resources to propel us to the next planet of consumption? I would wager extinction.



iamnotaparakeet
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12 Aug 2011, 10:24 pm

techn0teen wrote:
What's up with all the discussions on space exploration and colonizing here? (Not that I am complaining. I love the concept, and I think we need it to survive as a species)


As for my part, I want people to become interested in space again like I remember many of my peers being as a kid in the 90's. Nowadays it seems like so much of people's time is spent complaining about comparatively trivial issues and are generally dismissive of space travel - probably due to how little that has currently been accomplished and how far away the impossible star trek scenarios are. But even with the technology and knowledge of physics that we have now we could do so much more than what is being done currently, but we just are content to be sitting on our bums and doing nothing and that is what I'd like to counter with my space activism. I want us to finally get out into space and get that going. Anyone who has ever played a 4x strategy game would be able to recognize that our current camping in low earth orbit is basically a recipe for nothing ever really being done. We have a research facility in space, absorbing money, but no real economic infrastructure [apart from communications and GPS satellites, but I mean in terms of infrastructure that would allow for food production so as to not necessitate shipments of food from the ground, and warehouses for rental storage of goods, and other such of that sort]. Until we actually have it to where the basic necessities are met for astronauts without reliance upon the ground, it will remain nothing more than an industry on life support. But once the basics of survival are met in a manner that is independent of Earth based resources, then not just surviving will take place but then thriving will actually be possible.



Scandium
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12 Aug 2011, 10:28 pm

I think we would have problems in space. From my experience and what I've read about evolution (a special interest for me), it's very specific. It would probably take us thousands of years to adapt to microgravity. Even if we start colonizing the Moon or Mars, the body isn't used to the low gravity and will inexorably have some problems. Example:

There are certain elements and chemicals that the human body can handle. These are the ones that humans have been exposed to for millions of years. But if you try feeding someone something like Titanium, the body would not be used to the foreign chemical. Titanium is carcinogenic if ingested. That is why I am afraid of vitamin tablets and medicines.


I've been running evolution simulations on the computer every day this week. After a few hundred generations, the organisms will be well-suited to their environment and they, in effect, stop evolving. But once they are moved to a new environment, or their environment is slightly changed in a way they have never encountered, evolution starts up again. Organisms die, and the ones who are the most well-adapted pass on their genes, until it reaches equilibrium again. I think this is what would happen to humans off of Earth unless we create a habitat almost perfectly resembling those on Earth. That's why we get carsick and seasick. Someday there may be planet-sickness.


Sorry for the long post, but it combines three of my special interests. :D



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12 Aug 2011, 10:35 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Anyone who has ever played a 4x strategy game would be able to recognize that our current camping in low earth orbit is basically a recipe for nothing ever really being done.


That's an interesting analogy. But I think the main problem is that no one wants to go on a six-month trip to Mars to start a colony. That's why I think we should send robots first, to build all of the stuff we need, then send people. And we should send the people hundreds at a time (a) to get rid of the problem of loneliness, (b) so everyone has a "specialty" (farming, maintenance, etc.), and (c) because people will go only if other people go. (sheep-off-a-cliff)

BTW, if I'm not on WP or watching my evolving AIs, I'm watching Starcraft II games on Youtube.



iamnotaparakeet
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12 Aug 2011, 10:47 pm

Scandium wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Anyone who has ever played a 4x strategy game would be able to recognize that our current camping in low earth orbit is basically a recipe for nothing ever really being done.


That's an interesting analogy. But I think the main problem is that no one wants to go on a six-month trip to Mars to start a colony.


How about the people who volunteered for the Mars 500 program? http://www.esa.int/esaMI/Mars500/

Scandium wrote:
BTW, if I'm not on WP or watching my evolving AIs, I'm watching Starcraft II games on Youtube.


I haven't played Starcraft, but if you wouldn't mind a recommendation I think that Sins Of A Solar Empire and Sword Of The Stars are rather excellent.



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12 Aug 2011, 10:50 pm

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As for my part, I want people to become interested in space again like I remember many of my peers being as a kid in the 90's. Nowadays it seems like so much of people's time is spent complaining about comparatively trivial issues


Quote:
Until we actually have it to where the basic necessities are met for astronauts without reliance upon the ground, it will remain nothing more than an industry on life support. But once the basics of survival are met in a manner that is independent of Earth based resources, then not just surviving will take place but then thriving will actually be possible.


+1. It's always been my dream to make a computer that could rearrange organic materials using logical operations. For example, using the - operator would separate compounds and the + operator would add compounds. It could do a serious of operations to convert one compound to the next. Kind of like what plants and bacteria already do for us on Earth.

I would love to put one of these computers on a space station to make it self-sustaining. So people one day would be able to have their basic physical needs met by living on these space stations. So they don't have to starve in Somalia or drown in Bangladesh. The only thing required would be a continuous energy source (the sun/solar panels). I am such a dreamer and eccentric, but I am majoring in Computer Science studying hard to one day make it a reality. It will take a lifetime, but I am prepared to hit the ground running.

I want to get people interested too, and I am so passionate about it. It is what wakes me up, it's what made me overcome the difficulties of autism, and it is that makes me animated. It is the thing that lets me take all the negative things I have seen and experienced, stick my middle finger at them, and say "f*k you!! ! I'm going places." It is delightful to be having this discussion with the intelligent yet various minded people on here.



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12 Aug 2011, 10:53 pm

Scandium wrote:
It would probably take us thousands of years to adapt to microgravity. Even if we start colonizing the Moon or Mars, the body isn't used to the low gravity and will inexorably have some problems.


Colonists on the moon and Mars may indeed have a problem with muscle and bone loss as the gravity there doesn't require as much effort exerted as on Earth, but as for people living in centrifugal stations they would not necessarily have any problem. Mars has a third the gravity of Earth, so I'd expect that they'd have less of a problem than those on the Moon, but either way for station inhabitants if their centrifugal acceleration is equal to the gravitational acceleration of Earth then they should have no problems.

Additionally, for the inhabitants of Mars or Luna, if there were centrifugal way-point stations allowing for incremental increase in acceleration (transferring in turn to a station that has increasingly more acceleration after a period of adjustment to the first increment higher than one's native gravity, and then the next and so on) perhaps it might be possible to allow for readjustment of one's body if they wanted to go to a planet, like Earth, with higher gravity. I don't know though, but it's just an idea. A centrifugal ship could also be made such that during the long trip between Mars and Earth that it would gradually increase it's rate of rotation, perhaps to where the adjustment to higher acceleration may be imperceptible.



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12 Aug 2011, 11:24 pm

The only practical way to harness fusion energy is to blow up thermonuclear bombs and this violates the nuclear test ban treaty. So I doubt that the environmentalists will approve of fusion energy.



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12 Aug 2011, 11:37 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Colonists on the moon and Mars may indeed have a problem with muscle and bone loss as the gravity there doesn't require as much effort exerted as on Earth, but as for people living in centrifugal stations they would not necessarily have any problem..

I don't think I said my point clearly enough. (not in a rude way :P)
I mean that life is a very precarious thing. I tiny change in the environment can cause long-term effects. We didn't know asbestos was dangerous to us until people started developing lung problems with it. Similarly, we don't know the long-term effects of being in gravity even 5% off of Earth's gravity. Maybe there's some vital chemical reaction in our body that will work just slightly slower in low gravity: fast enough to cause us problems later on, but slow enough to not be detected until it's too late.


iamnotaparakeet wrote:
How about the people who volunteered for the Mars 500 program? http://www.esa.int/esaMI/Mars500/
...
I haven't played Starcraft, but if you wouldn't mind a recommendation I think that Sins Of A Solar Empire and Sword Of The Stars are rather excellent.

The people of the Mars500 program can do what they want, but the ordinary person would not want to use up a year of their lifetime in space. (I'd be okay with doing it as long as there is the internet. :P)

Thanks for the recommendation; watching videos of those games on Youtube right now...
Edit: I'd rather stick with Starcraft.



iamnotaparakeet
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12 Aug 2011, 11:49 pm

Scandium wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
How about the people who volunteered for the Mars 500 program? http://www.esa.int/esaMI/Mars500/

The people of the Mars500 program can do what they want, but the ordinary person would not want to use up a year of their lifetime in space. (I'd be okay with doing it as long as there is the internet. :P)


I wouldn't mind going and spending years of my life in space, whether headed to another planet or just to be there.



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13 Aug 2011, 12:10 am

500 days to get to Mars ? What a joke ! What are they using bean fart power?



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13 Aug 2011, 12:13 am

OP: I'm pretty confident in two things

1) We're learning a lot about solar and our panels are now hitting the threshold where they're getting more cost-effective commercially in a lot of places than more conventional power supplies. That will only increase and, for a society with mostly conservative tastes in decorum, I'm sure they'll be continuing to find new ways to hide solar collection in windows and roofing shingles.

2) We have HUGE amounts of natural gas. If we were on a liquified petroleum gas diet around the world we, financially, would be what Qatar and UAE are now.

3) Even going with oil, I never stop hearing about how vast and rich the tar sands of Alberta are, they may perhaps have enough to last the world another century or so (though I doubt it'll all be tapped before we find other more environmentally friendly means of transport than fossil fuels).


Regarding space though - I've read threads on this before and, I think I'd be more than glad to take a pass on living out there. The thought of losing most of my bone mass within a year or two gives me chills.


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13 Aug 2011, 12:14 am

androbot2084 wrote:
500 days to get to Mars ? What a joke ! What are they using bean fart power?


Hydrazine. At one point in time a trip from Europe to India took around that long, say nothing of the time it took to circumnavigate the globe.