What can change the nature of a person?

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lucy1
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24 Aug 2011, 9:24 pm

Experiences in life.

techstepgenr8tion
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24 Aug 2011, 9:30 pm

If you roll enough 2D12's anything can happen.

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TeaEarlGreyHot
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24 Aug 2011, 9:58 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

If you roll enough 2D12's anything can happen.

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Philologos
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25 Aug 2011, 1:00 am

blauSamstag wrote:

Philologos wrote:

But l'homme is not simply the pile of chemicals.

And evidence of change of nature - at least of anything I could recognize aa nature - has yet to cross my sensors.

know anyone who has had a bad brain injury?

Closest I come : mei Grossvater [looks like I lucked into an N dropping dialect, purely unintentional] who after a stroke moved from a badtempered snot to a REALLY badtempered snot who did not recognize his family, and Baba who as he progressed into Alzheimers. moved from a withdrawn guy tending to morosity into a happy and cmmunicative [noy always successfully] person.

In both cases, however, the traits were simply expansions of what was already there. My esteemed progenitor was always that way when in a social gathering of people in his field making no demands on him. The fact I rarely got to see it had to do with for example maman.

Not saying - clearly - that the change of nature could not be, but I have not encountered it, and it is hard to imagine what it might look like. If sister A became like sister B - or brother C like brother d!

But my longitudinal experiences include no Jekyll / Hyde, nor any physical metamorphoses motre drastic than puberty.

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25 Aug 2011, 2:52 am

Time and experience, those were what did it for me anyway.

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25 Aug 2011, 2:57 am

blauSamstag wrote:

Philologos wrote:

But l'homme is not simply the pile of chemicals.

And evidence of change of nature - at least of anything I could recognize aa nature - has yet to cross my sensors.

know anyone who has had a bad brain injury?

I do. My ex-husband. Went from being gentle to violent.

Many external events can change the nature of a person, for good or ill.

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25 Aug 2011, 3:55 am

Wallourdes wrote:

I've recently started playing Planescape Torment where the question 'What can change the nature of a man?' plays a central part of the game and thought this would be a nice topic to start here.

So, what can change the nature of a person?

Very little.

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25 Aug 2011, 11:44 am

Jory wrote:

Money.

Please explain

Fnord wrote:

Propaganda and other methods of brain-washing and mind-control can impose and enforce a specific philosophical ideal; methods such as: (1) restricting education to "approved" subjects; (2) restricting freedoms of creativity, speech, press, and religion; (3) censorship of the arts; (4) limited access to library material; (5) public execution of dissidents, intellectuals, and other "Free Thinkers"; (6) limited educational opportunities; (7) regimentation; (8) sleep deprivation; (9) daily indoctrination with "official" policies; (10) random round-up, interrogation, and "re-education" of even the most loyal of citizens; (11) rewarding citizens for denouncing "suspicious" behavior of their neighbors, friends, and family members; (12) forced labor; (13) beatings, torture, and other abuse...

The tools called Fear and Pain, not what I meant with philosophical but nonetheless they can be very effective to change the nature of a person even if the goal of breaking and remaking the person is reached or not.

Moog wrote:

Death

Love

Please explain

lucy1 wrote:

Experiences in life.

Please explain further.

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

If you roll enough 2D12's anything can happen.

ruveyn wrote:

Wallourdes wrote:

Very little.

ruveyn

Please explain

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25 Aug 2011, 12:48 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

Trauma. Not just physical, but psychological. I've seen people become a completely different person after psychological trauma.

Agreed.

I would like to add psychological torture. The IRS does it all the time, trying to convert citizens who would rather not give the government the kind of money they think they are entitled to into the kind of person who will do it voluntary. In fact they used to pay me pretty well to do that; that was a fun job for awhile but eventually I decided I wanted an honest job.

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TeaEarlGreyHot
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25 Aug 2011, 1:42 pm

NobelCynic wrote:

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

Trauma. Not just physical, but psychological. I've seen people become a completely different person after psychological trauma.

A gradual chipping away at one's will-power. That's how abusers operate, and it changes a person in so many ways.

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Philologos
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25 Aug 2011, 8:52 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

A gradual chipping away at one's will-power. That's how abusers operate, and it changes a person in so many ways.

That one gets behavior modfication and a shift of strategy priorities, nae doot.

but genuine change of nature?

TeaEarlGreyHot
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26 Aug 2011, 12:27 am

Philologos wrote:

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

A gradual chipping away at one's will-power. That's how abusers operate, and it changes a person in so many ways.

That one gets behavior modfication and a shift of strategy priorities, nae doot.

but genuine change of nature?

Sometimes, yes. It's a form of psychological trauma. It's something that'll always be with you, even after the abuse is long over. Psychotherapy can help de-program and even heal you to a point, but many are changed very fundamentally from it.

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Moog
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26 Aug 2011, 6:15 am

Maybe the question is, is there an essential nature underneath the modifications? Is the nature changed, or is the manifest behaviour just different?

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TeaEarlGreyHot
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26 Aug 2011, 11:12 am

Moog wrote:

Maybe the question is, is there an essential nature underneath the modifications? Is the nature changed, or is the manifest behaviour just different?

What is our nature if not our actions?

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Philologos
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26 Aug 2011, 11:34 am

Moog wrote:

Maybe the question is, is there an essential nature underneath the modifications? Is the nature changed, or is the manifest behaviour just different?

Quite. Tending as I do to assume a baseline, it is a quite significant question. The cases I have personally observed - two human, one feline - seem from here to fall into change of, shall we say, phenotype rather than genotype. But I have not seen cases of the brain trauma type. Doubting Tommy as I am, I would want a few hours with such a one before and after.

Not about to perform the experiment.

TeaEarlGreyHot
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26 Aug 2011, 11:49 am

Philologos wrote:

Moog wrote:

Maybe the question is, is there an essential nature underneath the modifications? Is the nature changed, or is the manifest behaviour just different?

Could you explain the difference between action and basic nature as you see it?

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