Malachi 3: 7-12

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blauSamstag
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29 Aug 2011, 11:37 pm

Knifey wrote:

The message is taken from, and interpreted from the original greek (or oldest text possible, as i'm aware) and translated into understandable modern day language. Unfortunately this means he has to paraphrase in order to make it more understandable. But I find it very accurate and often the most easy to understand version of the bible. you can find it at the biblegateway website.

The Message (MSG) - Malachi 3:7-12 wrote:

6-7"I am God—yes, I Am. I haven't changed. And because I haven't changed, you, the descendants of Jacob, haven't been destroyed. You have a long history of ignoring my commands. You haven't done a thing I've told you. Return to me so I can return to you," says God-of-the-Angel-Armies.

"You ask, 'But how do we return?'

8-11"Begin by being honest. Do honest people rob God? But you rob me day after day.

"You ask, 'How have we robbed you?'

"The tithe and the offering—that's how! And now you're under a curse —the whole lot of you—because you're robbing me. Bring your full tithe to the Temple treasury so there will be ample provisions in my Temple. Test me in this and see if I don't open up heaven itself to you and pour out blessings beyond your wildest dreams. For my part, I will defend you against marauders, protect your wheat fields and vegetable gardens against plunderers." The Message of God-of-the-Angel-Armies.

12"You'll be voted 'Happiest Nation.' You'll experience what it's like to be a country of grace." God-of-the-Angel-Armies says so.

What I take from this is God saying, I love you guys, I've always loved you guys, but i'm not looking after you because you're not looking after my temple. Give the money I once commanded you to give so the temple can be restored and maintained and I will dwell there, and bring my armies of angels to look after you and bless your land. If you are trying to extrapolate direct meaning of what God wants us to do today, I'm not sure you can do that from any of the old covenant as we live under the new covenant (new testament) unless you're a jew.

I see an archetype where an authority figure of uncertain repute is asking for protection money. 'lest anything bad should happen.

Knifey
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30 Aug 2011, 12:41 am

blauSamstag wrote:

I see an archetype where an authority figure of uncertain repute is asking for protection money. 'lest anything bad should happen.

Haha, God is a mob boss after protection money. Lol, I love this!

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androbot2084
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30 Aug 2011, 12:48 am

So is not supporting the concept of socialized medicine robbing God?

Knifey
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30 Aug 2011, 7:03 am

androbot2084 wrote:

So is not supporting the concept of socialized medicine robbing God?

taxes are separate

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blauSamstag
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30 Aug 2011, 9:05 am

Knifey wrote:

androbot2084 wrote:

So is not supporting the concept of socialized medicine robbing God?

taxes are separate

Render unto Caesar what is Caesars. Not that Caesar is saying that anything will happen, but it would be terrible if it did.

pandabear
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30 Aug 2011, 9:57 am

Quote:

I ask you, is it right for a person to cheat God? Of course not, yet you are cheating me.

"How?" you ask. In the matter of tithes and offerings. A curse is on all of you because the whole nation is cheating me. Bring the full amount of your tithes to the Temple, so that there will be plenty of food there.

I suppose that it could be argued that the principal reason for our nation's economic woes, plus the recent hurricane, is that the majority of people aren't giving at least ten percent of their income to a church that God considers reputable.

Quote:

Put me to the test and you will see that I will open the windows of heaven and pour out on you in abundance all kinds of good things.

I think that there may be a bit of a conflict here, in that we are not supposed to put God to the test.

But, if I were to give ten percent of my money to a church, and I didn't consequently become rich, would that mean that the church was disreputable?

pandabear
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30 Aug 2011, 10:02 am

Some more supplementary material for your pleasure.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/ ... 6728.shtml

Philologos
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30 Aug 2011, 1:51 pm

pandabear wrote:

Quote:

Put me to the test and you will see that I will open the windows of heaven and pour out on you in abundance all kinds of good things.

Some have so argued. Could be so - except that the woes are due to legalized abortions, or to rampant homosexuality, or to the attacks on Christians, or to women wearing men's clothing [not that Herself would be caught dead in my trousers or I in hers], or not using the Tetragrammaton with the right vowels, or popish idolatry, or - worst of all - the sin with no name.

But no, it would not mean the church was disrputable. It would mean you did not calculate right, or some of the tithe was counterfeit, or you sinned in other ways. And for sure it would mean you would not be invited to give your testimony on the air.

Philologos
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30 Aug 2011, 2:07 pm

Knifey wrote:

Philologos wrote:

IN which case you have no temple to maintain anyhow.

Well actually the church is our new temple. Our pastors/priests are our new levites. A congregation usually wants their leader to be at their beck and call 7 days a week so thats why they pay him a wage (the wage is usually set as part of the cumulative tithe a church takes). Some pastors/priests don't get a wage or are only payed 10 hours a week etc and they also have another job as well. In a way I think this is a modern day adaptation but the core principle is based in scripture (it is a good thing to give to God, and if people work for you then pay them).

Surely, it is normative for the flock to maintain the shepherd, though in some congregations [thinking one in particular] he dare not give up his day job. Small group.

Some extrascripturally move that to tithing - 10% is a convenient figure to calculate, my electronics teacher claimed an error of 10% is as good as right on the mark, and it can add up to a goodly chunk with a wealthy parish. But the pastor is NOT a priest nor a Levite, just a rabbi - distinguish priesthood in the conservative churches. And the tithe is NOT a New Covenant figure, however convenient.

In fact, as more than one pastor has pointed out to me, EVERYTHING we have is God's, entrusted to us to work with till he returns and asks for it. If God wants every cent I have to go into Obama;s war chest [perish the thought] I have to cough it up. The guy who hid his talent so as not to lose it on a bad investment got reprove for not making any profit. Suppose he had said, "Hey I gave one tenth of the talent to relieve widows and orphans, that means I get to keep the rest."! !?

blauSamstag
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30 Aug 2011, 2:32 pm

This is my suspicion.

Belief in the supernatural evolved as a benign insanity that allows us to self-regulate our stress level through irrational thought patterns.

Belief in diety evolved as a way to rationalize that irrational thought pattern, by applying recognizable social structures.

After that, men who were both wise and well-meaning created religion as a way to normalize beliefs within a society. I suspect they were sincere in their beliefs and desires.

Either after that or in concert with it, men of power co-opted religion as a means of social control. The evidence of this is scattered throughout the ages and is undeniable. I am unwilling to indict any current religion but you cannot pretend that it has never happened.

And this gave rise to priestcraft, which we see in modern-day televangelism.

I wouldn't deny anyone a benign insanity if they need it to be happy, and i respect the sincerity of sincere believers, provided that they respect my disagreement.

I actually first arrived at the beginnings of this hypothesis when i read the tao te ching. Awful lot in there about being a good citizen.

Knifey
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30 Aug 2011, 11:23 pm

Philologos wrote:

Some extrascripturally move that to tithing - 10% is a convenient figure to calculate, my electronics teacher claimed an error of 10% is as good as right on the mark, and it can add up to a goodly chunk with a wealthy parish. But the pastor is NOT a priest nor a Levite, just a rabbi - distinguish priesthood in the conservative churches. And the tithe is NOT a New Covenant figure, however convenient.

Luke 11:42 Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practised the latter without leaving the former undone.

Is he talking to people under the new covenant or not? The term priest under the covenant could apply to all christians and is arbitrary which is why some churches don't have priests. 1 Peter 2:4

Philologos wrote:

The guy who hid his talent so as not to lose it on a bad investment got reprove for not making any profit.

I have to take issue with this. He did not rebuke his servant for not making profit, he rebuked him for playing it safe and not even trying to make profit!

Quote:

"The master was furious. 'That's a terrible way to live! It's criminal to live cautiously like that! If you knew I was after the best, why did you do less than the least? The least you could have done would have been to invest the sum with the bankers, where at least I would have gotten a little interest.

"Take the thousand and give it to the one who risked the most. And get rid of this "play-it-safe" who won't go out on a limb. Throw him out into utter darkness.'

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Philologos
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31 Aug 2011, 1:25 am

Knifey wrote:

I tend to take issue with the serious dispensationalism that has Christ talking only to the Jews, but in this case he is addressing the Pharisees who fulfill the letter of the obligation that applies to them ignoring the spirit.

Priests in Christianity is az complex discourse. Anyway, Paul admonishes us to help out financially the guy who teaches us.

Knifey wrote:

Philologos wrote:

The guy who hid his talent so as not to lose it on a bad investment got reprove for not making any profit.

I have to take issue with this. He did not rebuke his servant for not making profit, he rebuked him for playing it safe and not even trying to make profit!

True enough. Occasionally I talk loosely. But I think the real issue - compare Saul back in to OT - is not the profit, but the refusal to obey, substituting his own wits for the boss'. Had I been there, I would have asked Jesus what would happen to a servant who invested it and lost half of it. Maybe Thomas went up to him privately afterward and asked.

ruveyn
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31 Aug 2011, 6:23 am

Knifey wrote:

Philologos wrote:

The guy who hid his talent so as not to lose it on a bad investment got reprove for not making any profit.

I have to take issue with this. He did not rebuke his servant for not making profit, he rebuked him for playing it safe and not even trying to make profit!

Quote:

There are two major commandments in the "old covenant". 1. Love God and 2. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. in addition to which there is the commandment to pursue Justice (i.e. righteousness). Just 3 of the 613 commandments of the "old covenant".

R. Hillel pointed out that the essence of Torah is to learn not to do unto others what you would hate being done to you. It is all about self-control and being decent to one's neighbor.

So what does Christianity teach that is more important than this?

ruveyn

Knifey
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31 Aug 2011, 8:32 am

ruveyn wrote:

I think you mean two major commandments in the new covenant, Jesus said this?

ruveyn wrote:

R. Hillel pointed out that the essence of Torah is to learn not to do unto others what you would hate being done to you. It is all about self-control and being decent to one's neighbor.

So what does Christianity teach that is more important than this?

So that sounds exactly the same as what Jesus said in commandment number 2. I'm not sure What you're question is?

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ruveyn
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31 Aug 2011, 9:08 am

Knifey wrote:

I think you mean two major commandments in the new covenant, Jesus said this?

You have no idea what is in Torah (what you Goyim call "The Law"). Read the book of Vayikra (what you Goyim call Leviticus). Your ignorance is remarkable (which is why I am remarking on it).

Christian apologists have constructed this straw-man where Pharisees with long hooked noses care only about the details of sacrifice. You have no concept of how Judaism has evolved since the destruction of the the Second Temple and the Diaspara. You Goyim are stone solid ignorant about how Judaism operates. You Goyim have been poisoned by that goniff Paul/Saul of Tarsus.

ruveyn

note: Goyim is Hebrew for Gentiles so don't get in a snit.

pandabear
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31 Aug 2011, 10:08 am

ruveyn wrote:

"Liberal", "Mainstream" Christianity may be similar in its emphasis.

"Conservative", "Evango-Fascist" Christianity is centered around hatred.

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