Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

"Which Bible" is the "right" one?

Page 2 of 6 [ 88 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

JakobVirgil
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Age: 51
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,744
Location: yes

15 Nov 2011, 5:54 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Look up Isaiah 7:14 in you translation. If you see the word "virgin" there, consign it to the flames.

ruveyn


And what if it has the word "virgin", translating the same Hebrew word, in Genesis 24:43?




The Hebrew there is Almah which means a young unmarried women. The correct translation is -young woman-. In that context the young woman was most likely a virgin but the word b'tulah (virgin) is not used in the text.

ruveyn


So, if though the word for virgin is not used it is still implied? Even though a young woman in western cultures in modern times has a far lesser likelihood of being a virgin, could it have not have been different approximately 4,000 years ago for people in the extended family of Abraham even if not completely in the other civilizations surrounding?


I think the more interesting thing is that it implies the author of Mathew read the Tankh in greek not hebrew. :?


_________________
?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??

http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/


iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

15 Nov 2011, 7:15 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Look up Isaiah 7:14 in you translation. If you see the word "virgin" there, consign it to the flames.

ruveyn


And what if it has the word "virgin", translating the same Hebrew word, in Genesis 24:43?




The Hebrew there is Almah which means a young unmarried women. The correct translation is -young woman-. In that context the young woman was most likely a virgin but the word b'tulah (virgin) is not used in the text.

ruveyn


So, if though the word for virgin is not used it is still implied? Even though a young woman in western cultures in modern times has a far lesser likelihood of being a virgin, could it have not have been different approximately 4,000 years ago for people in the extended family of Abraham even if not completely in the other civilizations surrounding?


I think the more interesting thing is that it implies the author of Mathew read the Tankh in greek not hebrew. :?


Well, even if they read the Septuagint which translates the Hebrew word for "young woman" into the Greek word for "virgin", it still has implications as to the connotations of the word and the interpretation of Isaiah by the Rabbis who translated the Septuagint prior to Christ's birth.



JakobVirgil
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Age: 51
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,744
Location: yes

15 Nov 2011, 7:19 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Look up Isaiah 7:14 in you translation. If you see the word "virgin" there, consign it to the flames.

ruveyn


And what if it has the word "virgin", translating the same Hebrew word, in Genesis 24:43?




The Hebrew there is Almah which means a young unmarried women. The correct translation is -young woman-. In that context the young woman was most likely a virgin but the word b'tulah (virgin) is not used in the text.

ruveyn


So, if though the word for virgin is not used it is still implied? Even though a young woman in western cultures in modern times has a far lesser likelihood of being a virgin, could it have not have been different approximately 4,000 years ago for people in the extended family of Abraham even if not completely in the other civilizations surrounding?


I think the more interesting thing is that it implies the author of Mathew read the Tankh in greek not hebrew. :?


Well, even if they read the Septuagint which translates the Hebrew word for "young woman" into the Greek word for "virgin", it still has implications as to the connotations of the word and the interpretation of Isaiah by the Rabbis who translated the Septuagint prior to Christ's birth.


Great and highly defensible point. But why didn't Mathew read Hebrew?


_________________
?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??

http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/


shrox
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Aug 2011
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,295
Location: OK let's go.

15 Nov 2011, 7:20 pm

This one:

http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/



iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

15 Nov 2011, 7:24 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Look up Isaiah 7:14 in you translation. If you see the word "virgin" there, consign it to the flames.

ruveyn


And what if it has the word "virgin", translating the same Hebrew word, in Genesis 24:43?




The Hebrew there is Almah which means a young unmarried women. The correct translation is -young woman-. In that context the young woman was most likely a virgin but the word b'tulah (virgin) is not used in the text.

ruveyn


So, if though the word for virgin is not used it is still implied? Even though a young woman in western cultures in modern times has a far lesser likelihood of being a virgin, could it have not have been different approximately 4,000 years ago for people in the extended family of Abraham even if not completely in the other civilizations surrounding?


I think the more interesting thing is that it implies the author of Mathew read the Tankh in greek not hebrew. :?


Well, even if they read the Septuagint which translates the Hebrew word for "young woman" into the Greek word for "virgin", it still has implications as to the connotations of the word and the interpretation of Isaiah by the Rabbis who translated the Septuagint prior to Christ's birth.


Great and highly defensible point. But why didn't Mathew read Hebrew?


Well, his occupation prior to becoming one of Christ's disciples was that of tax collecting for the Roman government. It's possible that he may never have learned Hebrew or only knew very little. I would have no way to know for certain though, this is just speculation.

Also to consider though is this, even if he knew Hebrew the translation of the Tanakh into Greek was done by Rabbis rather than merely language interpreters so even having read the Bible in Hebrew he might defer his judgement to that of the Rabbis who translated it "virgin".



JakobVirgil
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Age: 51
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,744
Location: yes

15 Nov 2011, 7:32 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Look up Isaiah 7:14 in you translation. If you see the word "virgin" there, consign it to the flames.

ruveyn


And what if it has the word "virgin", translating the same Hebrew word, in Genesis 24:43?




The Hebrew there is Almah which means a young unmarried women. The correct translation is -young woman-. In that context the young woman was most likely a virgin but the word b'tulah (virgin) is not used in the text.

ruveyn


So, if though the word for virgin is not used it is still implied? Even though a young woman in western cultures in modern times has a far lesser likelihood of being a virgin, could it have not have been different approximately 4,000 years ago for people in the extended family of Abraham even if not completely in the other civilizations surrounding?


I think the more interesting thing is that it implies the author of Mathew read the Tankh in greek not hebrew. :?


Well, even if they read the Septuagint which translates the Hebrew word for "young woman" into the Greek word for "virgin", it still has implications as to the connotations of the word and the interpretation of Isaiah by the Rabbis who translated the Septuagint prior to Christ's birth.


Great and highly defensible point. But why didn't Mathew read Hebrew?


Well, his occupation prior to becoming one of Christ's disciples was that of tax collecting for the Roman government. It's possible that he may never have learned Hebrew or only knew very little. I would have no way to know for certain though, this is just speculation.

Also to consider though is this, even if he knew Hebrew the translation of the Tanakh into Greek was done by Rabbis rather than merely language interpreters so even having read the Bible in Hebrew he might defer his judgement to that of the Rabbis who translated it "virgin".


the character of Mathew is more interesting to me then the Almah.


_________________
?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??

http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/


iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

15 Nov 2011, 7:36 pm

Even if the passage in chapter 7 is to be consider irrelevant among Messianic prophecies, there is yet that in chapter 9:

Isaiah 9:2-7 wrote:
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian. For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.



iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

15 Nov 2011, 7:41 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Look up Isaiah 7:14 in you translation. If you see the word "virgin" there, consign it to the flames.

ruveyn


And what if it has the word "virgin", translating the same Hebrew word, in Genesis 24:43?




The Hebrew there is Almah which means a young unmarried women. The correct translation is -young woman-. In that context the young woman was most likely a virgin but the word b'tulah (virgin) is not used in the text.

ruveyn


So, if though the word for virgin is not used it is still implied? Even though a young woman in western cultures in modern times has a far lesser likelihood of being a virgin, could it have not have been different approximately 4,000 years ago for people in the extended family of Abraham even if not completely in the other civilizations surrounding?


I think the more interesting thing is that it implies the author of Mathew read the Tankh in greek not hebrew. :?


Well, even if they read the Septuagint which translates the Hebrew word for "young woman" into the Greek word for "virgin", it still has implications as to the connotations of the word and the interpretation of Isaiah by the Rabbis who translated the Septuagint prior to Christ's birth.


Great and highly defensible point. But why didn't Mathew read Hebrew?


Well, his occupation prior to becoming one of Christ's disciples was that of tax collecting for the Roman government. It's possible that he may never have learned Hebrew or only knew very little. I would have no way to know for certain though, this is just speculation.

Also to consider though is this, even if he knew Hebrew the translation of the Tanakh into Greek was done by Rabbis rather than merely language interpreters so even having read the Bible in Hebrew he might defer his judgement to that of the Rabbis who translated it "virgin".


the character of Mathew is more interesting to me then the Almah.


Well, keep seeking out knowledge then, as Proverbs 15:14 says, "The heart of him who has understanding seeks knowledge, but the mouth of fools feeds on foolishness."



waltur
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 May 2009
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 924
Location: california

15 Nov 2011, 7:48 pm

AnonymousAnonymous wrote:
Before you call me a freak, today I was at a meeting of Christians
and Catholics who are...well I can't say the rest.

We read passages from Peter 1 and Romans 10.
Everyone had a Bible, except me.

I am considering taking an English class for Winter Term that focuses
on the Good Book as literature.

So, "which Bible" is the "right" one, if I take this class?



Have you considered a more ...contemporary translation? www.lolcatbible.com/ is a favorite, in my home.



iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

15 Nov 2011, 7:59 pm

Hence, Proverbs 15:14b .... :roll:



JakobVirgil
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Age: 51
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,744
Location: yes

15 Nov 2011, 8:17 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Even if the passage in chapter 7 is to be consider irrelevant among Messianic prophecies, there is yet that in chapter 9:

Isaiah 9:2-7 wrote:
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian. For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Erich Fromm (rabbi from my sect of Judaism) pointed out that psalm 22 was prolly recited by Josh on the cross.
it is quite beautiful.


_________________
?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??

http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/


iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

15 Nov 2011, 8:39 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Even if the passage in chapter 7 is to be consider irrelevant among Messianic prophecies, there is yet that in chapter 9:

Isaiah 9:2-7 wrote:
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian. For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Erich Fromm (rabbi from my sect of Judaism) pointed out that psalm 22 was prolly recited by Josh on the cross.
it is quite beautiful.


"Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?", in Mark 15:34, yep.



pandabear
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,402

15 Nov 2011, 9:55 pm

I will recommend the Good News Bible. It is written in a very simple, modern English. You can sit down and read it as you would read a novel.

Plus, it translates Isaiah 7:14 as

Quote:
Well then, the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman who is pregnant will have a son and will name him Immanuel.


No only does it pass the Ruveyn Litmus test, but there is a footnote that reads

Quote:
YOUNG WOMAN: The Hebrew word here translated "young woman" is not the particular term for "virgin", but refers to any young woman of marriageable age. The use of "virgin" in Mt. 1.23 reflects a Greek translation of the Old Testament, made some 500 years after Isaiah.


Which should give it the Ruveyn Thumbs Up!



pandabear
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,402

16 Nov 2011, 9:12 am

In fairness, though, I should point out that the Good News Bible fails the Piss-Against-the-Wall test.

1 Kings 14:10 King James Version wrote:
Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone.


1 Kings 14:10 Good News Translation wrote:
Because of this I will bring disaster on your dynasty and will kill all your male descendants, young and old alike. I will get rid of your family; they will be swept away like dung.


Nowhere near as colourful.



kxmode
Supporting Member
Supporting Member

User avatar

Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,613
Location: In your neighborhood, knocking on your door. :)

16 Nov 2011, 12:02 pm

pandabear wrote:
In fairness, though, I should point out that the Good News Bible fails the Piss-Against-the-Wall test.

1 Kings 14:10 King James Version wrote:
Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone.


1 Kings 14:10 Good News Translation wrote:
Because of this I will bring disaster on your dynasty and will kill all your male descendants, young and old alike. I will get rid of your family; they will be swept away like dung.


That doesn't sound like Good News to me. o_o

As a side note the Jeroboam family line was extremely corrupt and evil.



iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

16 Nov 2011, 12:13 pm

kxmode wrote:
pandabear wrote:
In fairness, though, I should point out that the Good News Bible fails the Piss-Against-the-Wall test.

1 Kings 14:10 King James Version wrote:
Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone.


1 Kings 14:10 Good News Translation wrote:
Because of this I will bring disaster on your dynasty and will kill all your male descendants, young and old alike. I will get rid of your family; they will be swept away like dung.


That doesn't sound like Good News to me. o_o

As a side note the Jeroboam family line was extremely corrupt and evil.


Hence why God would be ticked with the monastic lineage of Jeroboam.