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b9
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27 Nov 2011, 1:11 pm

ruveyn wrote:
b9 wrote:
up until today, i thought that the reason that jews were reviled in history was that they were the first people to practice usury.



Not so. Usury goes back thousands of years. In fact usury is forbidden to Jews under Torah law.

This excerpt from the Wiki article:

The combination of loans and interest, in Judaism, is a complicated and detailed subject. The biblical Hebrew terms for interest are neshekh (Heb.: נשך), literally meaning a bite, and marbit/tarbit (Heb.: מרבית/תרבית), which specifically refers to the gain by the creditor[1]; neshekh referred to interest that was charged by deducting it from the loaned money itself, before the loaned money was handed over to the debtor, while marbit/tarbit referred to interest that was charged by adding it to the amount due to be repaid[2]. The word marbit/tarbit, which referred to the form of interest more familiar in modern times, became ribbit (Heb.: ריבית), in later Hebrew, and hence in modern Hebrew[1]. Similar to the Arabic word Riba used in the Quran.
The Torah and Talmud encourage the granting of loans, but only if it doesn't involve interest, with certain exceptions. Charging interest is classed in the Book of Ezekiel as being among the worst sins[3], and is forbidden according to Jewish law. The Talmud dwells particularly on Ezekiel's condemnation of interest[4], where Ezekiel denounces it as an abomination, and metaphorically portrays usurers as people who have shed blood.

ruveyn

yes i understand now.
i know that jews were not allowed by some ethical law to charge interest on loans to other jews, but they were free to charge what they wished to non jews.

apparently they were purely and greedily mercenary. and they were the epitome of ruthlessness in their principles.

anyway i do not want to talk further about this because i know nothing more than i have already said so goodbye.



ruveyn
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27 Nov 2011, 1:51 pm

b9 wrote:

apparently they were purely and greedily mercenary. and they were the epitome of ruthlessness in their principles.



These terrible awful people insisted on being repaid.

ruveyn



DevilInPgh
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29 Nov 2011, 4:27 pm

StonedMoonie wrote:
For the same reason everyone else did. They're (in general) exclusionary, nepotistic, racially and culturally elitist and insist on insinuating themselves into the halls of power. Of course, most Jews aren't directly connected to this; but they do indirectly support it with all their idiotic Torah myths. There is a significant contingent of Zionist-Supremicists who are far crazier than Nazis, and much more successful. I think it's wrong to dislike 'jews' in general for this, but anyone who doesn't hate the Zionist pseudo-right and its social nationalism is not concerned with civilization.


Um, wow.
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Ragtime
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29 Nov 2011, 5:08 pm

There is no reasonable interpretation of the Bible that would lead Christians to attempt to exterminate the Jews.

Quote:
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew....

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
(Romans 11:1-2,11-12)


Quote:
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
(Matt 22:37-40)


That said, Christendom is guilty of much anti-Semitism and murder, and therefore Christians must explain much, as well as apologize for the individual unbiblical and anti-biblical elements within Christendom who wrought these horrors upon God's chosen people. Murder does not follow from biblical Christianity; you can't get that from Jesus.


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Kraichgauer
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29 Nov 2011, 5:26 pm

Ragtime wrote:
There is no reasonable interpretation of the Bible that would lead Christians to attempt to exterminate the Jews.

Quote:
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew....

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
(Romans 11:1-2,11-12)


Quote:
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
(Matt 22:37-40)


That said, Christendom is guilty of much anti-Semitism and murder, and therefore Christians must explain much, as well as apologize for the individual unbiblical and anti-biblical elements within Christendom who wrought these horrors upon God's chosen people. Murder does not follow from biblical Christianity; you can't get that from Jesus.


Why do I need to apologize or answer for something which my ancestors or distant relatives had done? It's for Christians to love Jews; but that's because Jews are our neighbors, and not because we think we'll get in God's favor for it.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Ragtime
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29 Nov 2011, 5:37 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
There is no reasonable interpretation of the Bible that would lead Christians to attempt to exterminate the Jews.

Quote:
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew....

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
(Romans 11:1-2,11-12)


Quote:
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
(Matt 22:37-40)


That said, Christendom is guilty of much anti-Semitism and murder, and therefore Christians must explain much, as well as apologize for the individual unbiblical and anti-biblical elements within Christendom who wrought these horrors upon God's chosen people. Murder does not follow from biblical Christianity; you can't get that from Jesus.


Why do I need to apologize or answer for something which my ancestors or distant relatives had done? It's for Christians to love Jews; but that's because Jews are our neighbors, and not because we think we'll get in God's favor for it.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


If we consider ourselves part of Christendom, which all Christians are, then we need to admit the wrongs done in that name -- the wrongs done by "our crowd" -- heretical though those murderous elements were. If people kill in the name of Christ, it naturally falls to genuine Christians to explain how the Bible shows that these people were not Christian in their hearts and minds, and were utterly out of their minds if they thought they were.


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Kraichgauer
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29 Nov 2011, 6:10 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
There is no reasonable interpretation of the Bible that would lead Christians to attempt to exterminate the Jews.

Quote:
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew....

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
(Romans 11:1-2,11-12)


Quote:
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
(Matt 22:37-40)


That said, Christendom is guilty of much anti-Semitism and murder, and therefore Christians must explain much, as well as apologize for the individual unbiblical and anti-biblical elements within Christendom who wrought these horrors upon God's chosen people. Murder does not follow from biblical Christianity; you can't get that from Jesus.


Why do I need to apologize or answer for something which my ancestors or distant relatives had done? It's for Christians to love Jews; but that's because Jews are our neighbors, and not because we think we'll get in God's favor for it.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


If we consider ourselves part of Christendom, which all Christians are, then we need to admit the wrongs done in that name -- the wrongs done by "our crowd" -- heretical though those murderous elements were. If people kill in the name of Christ, it naturally falls to genuine Christians to explain how the Bible shows that these people were not Christian in their hearts and minds, and were utterly out of their minds if they thought they were.


Sure, we should defend our true position of acceptance of all people, Jews included, and how the true teachings of our religion forbid such behavior. But in no way is my little daughter, or any one else in my family, responsible the actions of her ancestors, or for those of her distant cousins in Nazi Germany.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



codarac
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29 Nov 2011, 6:40 pm

Greco-Roman pre-Christian anti-semitism:

"The Jews belong to a dark and repulsive force. One knows how numerous this clique is, how they stick together and what power they exercise through their unions. They are a nation of rascals and deceivers." - Cicero (106-43 BC)

“among themselves they are inflexibly honest and ever ready to show compassion, though they regard the rest of mankind with all the hatred of enemies” - Tacitus (AD 56 – AD 117)

“the Jews swear by God, the Maker of heaven, earth, and sea, to bear no good-will to any foreigner, and particularly to none of the Greeks.” - Apion (20s BC - c. 45-48 AD)

Islamic anti-semitism:

"Whoever is a friend of a Jew, belong to them, becomes one of them, God cannot tolerate this mean people. The Jews have wandered from divine religion. You must not relent in your work which must show up Jewish deceit." - The Prophet Muhammad (570-632) the Koran

Deist anti-semitism:

"You will only find in the Jews an ignorant and barbarous people, who for a long time have joined the most sordid avarice to the most detestable superstition and to the most invincible hatred of all peoples which tolerate and enrich them." - Voltaire (1694-1778)

Atheist anti-semitism:

"This whole Jewish world, comprising a single exploiting sect, a kind of blood sucking people, a kind of organic destructive collective parasite, going beyond not only the frontiers of states, but of political opinion, this world is now, at least for the most part, at the disposal of Marx on the one hand, and of Rothschild on the other... This may seem strange. What can there be in common between socialism and a leading bank? The point is that authoritarian socialism, Marxist communism, demands a strong centralisation of the state. And where there is centralisation of the state, there must necessarily be a central bank, and where such a bank exists, the parasitic Jewish nation, speculating with the Labour of the people, will be found" - Mikhail Bakunin (1814-1876)



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29 Nov 2011, 6:51 pm

It's actually pretty straightforward. The fact of the matter is that the Christians until recently in history had strong laws and stronger scruples against charging interest on loans (usury). Where it wasn't entirely forbidden, there was a cap on how much interest you could charge. The irony is that this idea originated with the Jews. They just never really took it seriously because it's stupid.

Well, as a result, various morons would borrow themselves into the hole, and they of course developed a hatred toward the people they were indebted to (Jews).

Cultures that still have laws and scruples against usury, by the way, still tend to be infested with antisemitism, a la Islam.



socalaspie
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29 Nov 2011, 8:19 pm

In addition to the aforementioned jealousy (it's human nature to hate people that are more successful and productive than yourself), for the same reason neurotypicals hate Aspies--because they were bigoted pieces of garbage that could not stand anyone different from themselves.


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Ragtime
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29 Nov 2011, 8:23 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
There is no reasonable interpretation of the Bible that would lead Christians to attempt to exterminate the Jews.

Quote:
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew....

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
(Romans 11:1-2,11-12)


Quote:
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
(Matt 22:37-40)


That said, Christendom is guilty of much anti-Semitism and murder, and therefore Christians must explain much, as well as apologize for the individual unbiblical and anti-biblical elements within Christendom who wrought these horrors upon God's chosen people. Murder does not follow from biblical Christianity; you can't get that from Jesus.


Why do I need to apologize or answer for something which my ancestors or distant relatives had done? It's for Christians to love Jews; but that's because Jews are our neighbors, and not because we think we'll get in God's favor for it.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


If we consider ourselves part of Christendom, which all Christians are, then we need to admit the wrongs done in that name -- the wrongs done by "our crowd" -- heretical though those murderous elements were. If people kill in the name of Christ, it naturally falls to genuine Christians to explain how the Bible shows that these people were not Christian in their hearts and minds, and were utterly out of their minds if they thought they were.


Sure, we should defend our true position of acceptance of all people, Jews included, and how the true teachings of our religion forbid such behavior. But in no way is my little daughter, or any one else in my family, responsible the actions of her ancestors, or for those of her distant cousins in Nazi Germany.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


True.


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donnie_darko
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01 Dec 2011, 8:28 pm

I have a question - is disliking Judaism alone anti-Semitism? I mean people who dislike the tenets of Christianity and Islam are generally not considered bigots. What about someone who has nothing against people of Jewish ethnicity but dislike the religion? Would that make them anti-Semitic?



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02 Dec 2011, 1:45 am

donnie_darko wrote:
I have a question - is disliking Judaism alone anti-Semitism? I mean people who dislike the tenets of Christianity and Islam are generally not considered bigots. What about someone who has nothing against people of Jewish ethnicity but dislike the religion? Would that make them anti-Semitic?


that was symptomatic of Luther's unfortunate Antisemitism in his later years, in which he advocated exiling practitioners of Judaism, but defended Jewish converts from persecution.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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02 Dec 2011, 3:21 am

It's probably just that they are different and, to the contrary of many other "different" people, have always had a strange hability not to "merge" with (or into) other groups, so they remained always different, but within the European society.

Christians (and humans) have always maintained a very global tendency not to like or tolerate difference. Proof: they also hated, without much discrimination, Muslims, Pagans, heretics and schismatics of any possible variety (Valdeans, Arians, Orthodox, Lutherans, Calvinists, Catholics, sub-varieties of either, etc.), and strange old women (witch-hunts), not counting the patronizing attitude of the White man's burden because colonial powers did not actually kill indigenous people for the fun of it, in general.



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02 Dec 2011, 3:38 am

donnie_darko wrote:
I have a question - is disliking Judaism alone anti-Semitism? I mean people who dislike the tenets of Christianity and Islam are generally not considered bigots. What about someone who has nothing against people of Jewish ethnicity but dislike the religion? Would that make them anti-Semitic?


I think it would make them in disagreement with the tenets of Judaism, but it wouldn't make them anti-semites.



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02 Dec 2011, 7:53 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

that was symptomatic of Luther's unfortunate Antisemitism in his later years, in which he advocated exiling practitioners of Judaism, but defended Jewish converts from persecution.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Still making excuses for that proto-Nazi Martin Luther?

Here is a document (written by a Lutheran, btw.) about your buddy Martin Luther.

http://www2.luthersem.edu/word&world/Ar ... endrix.pdf

He was a Jew hater of the first magnitude and a thoroughly bad and unbalanced person. Perhaps his madness and evil was related to his bowel disorder.

ruveyn