Page 2 of 5 [ 76 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Janissy
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 May 2009
Age: 59
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,450
Location: x

21 Dec 2011, 8:37 am

GoonSquad wrote:
....something--I don't care what (as long as you don't blow people up or screw with biology class).


http://www.npr.org/2011/12/20/144026606 ... -spiritual

Quote:
December 20, 2011

Eric Weiner's most recent book is Man Seeks God: My Flirtations with the Divine.

Surveys show religious people are happier than the secular. Why is this? Is it — as an atheist friend quipped — that "ignorance is bliss?" Not long ago, that's what I would have concluded. Like many people of my ilk — cerebral East Coaster, highly skeptical and, yes, latte drinking — I reflexively viewed the religious as less sophisticated. And, if I'm brutally honest here, somehow less intelligent, or at least more narrow-minded. I don't feel that way anymore.


I spent several years traveling the world, meeting deeply religious people from faiths as diverse as Buddhism and Catholicism, Taoism and Wicca. These people didn't check their brains at the temple door. They are intelligent, but theirs is an intelligence that extends beyond that of cold logic alone: an intuitive sense that I envy. And while it's true that some of those I met sought absolute certainty from their faith, the vast majority live comfortably with doubt and uncertainty. They fit squarely into a category that one psychologist calls the "Questers," those who see questions, not answers, as central to their religious experience.

Slowly, I've come to realize that I too am a Quester. To be clear: I consider myself a rationalist. I believe that reason, and its offshoot, science, are good. I also believe that there is more to the world than meets the eye, though I'd be hard-pressed to define what that "more" is. Am I an agnostic? Sort of, but I'm more active than that. We Questers do things. We meditate. We pray. And we do these things even though we don't fully believe in them.

What do you believe? That's our default question when it comes to matters of faith. Frankly, and with all due respect, I don't care what you believe. What do you experience? What do you do? Those are the more important questions.

I met a Kabbalist in Israel named Avraham, and he explained it like this. For years, he read religious texts but always wondered: "How do they know that?" One day, he shifted the question to: "What do they mean by that?" A subtle shift, but a crucial one, he told me.

Avraham is happy — happier than just about anyone I've ever met. Non-believers might say his happiness is based on a lie. But who are we to say what is true? As William James, that great chronicler of religious experience, put it: "Truth is what works." On the face of it, that sounds absurd. But James is speaking of a different kind of truth. If spiritual practices work for us, if they make us better, happier people, than they are true.

The debate between faith and reason is a false one. Science and religion don't occupy the same turf. Saying, "Now that we have science, there is no reason for religion" is like saying, "Now that we have the microwave oven, we have no use for Shakespeare." We need both, of course. Only then can we lead fully rounded lives. And, yes, happier ones, too.


In my journey from Baptist to atheist to deist and student of Stoic ethics, I can say I've always been happier believing in something.


I also attempted this because of research and my own personal observation that people with faith tend to be happier and have more of a sense of purpose in life. My mission ultimatel;y failed. It turns out that faith was not, for me, a "fake it till you make it" situation. I couldn't just consciously decide to have faith (although I tried) because I was well aware that it was a conscious decision, making it feel (accurately) like unauthentic faith. So I decided to let go and stop worrying about whether or not I could manufacture a level of faith to make me happy. And ironically, that made me happy.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 89
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

21 Dec 2011, 8:45 am

kxmode wrote:
A person who is deeply interested in scientific discovery through a study of one aspect of science may conclude God does not exist. Is this fair to say God does not exist based on their limited research in one particular field of science? I don't think so. If a scientist were to combine their scientific knowledge with biblical knowledge they would find both are compatible.



Both assertions: God exists and God does not exist are untestable. From a scientific point of view the entire question is nonsense.

ruveyn



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 89
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

21 Dec 2011, 8:47 am

kxmode wrote:

This is why I believe in the bible. Although it was written by human hands it is divinely inspired as 2 Timothy 3:16 states. No human back then could know these things unless it was inspired by a supreme being. That supreme being identifies himself numerous times in his word the bible as Jehovah God... or Yahweh Elohim (if you're Jewish). :)


Do you know any of the writers of scriptures personally? Have you talked with them? If not, then who do you know they were inspired and even if they were inspired who inspired them?

ruveyn



lunarious
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 29 Aug 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 33

21 Dec 2011, 9:48 am

Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem

Idaho rose. I am completely social, a nice guy and I am not faking it. I am willing to leave everything in order to get married with you, yet it is so that if I am called on for combat I will have to leave you. I won't close my eyes forever when we are together, I expect that we do fun things together alone. I want to thank God for putting his combatants all of them in use for us that we can be able to enjoy the company of eachother. All this we have, only if we believe. ... I really need a believing, lunatic wife. Please. ... I can't take that you are absent like this. I want to talk to you. I have sent you letters, but I don't know if they come to you. These "submissions" did not come forth! Am I submitting my voice to someone who does not send it forth? Please IdahoRose talk to me. Anyone, tell her. Tell her I love her and help me out. In the Lords the diving, God name help me out.

Salam



GoonSquad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 May 2007
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,748
Location: International House of Paincakes...

21 Dec 2011, 12:28 pm

snapcap wrote:
As long as they aren't too fundamental about their religion, I'm generally more respectful of people that believe than those that don't. Atheism, to me, has a common thread with nihilism, and I can't get behind that.


Yeah, some sort of moral/ethical code is necessary for people to live together in a functional, just society.

No matter how reasonable and benevolent someone is, they will lose their way from time to time. That's why it's good to have a coherent set of beliefs to check yourself against--a way to recalibrate your moral compass.


_________________
No man is free who is not master of himself.~Epictetus


WilliamWDelaney
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Apr 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,201

21 Dec 2011, 12:29 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
In my journey from Baptist to atheist to deist and student of Stoic ethics, I can say I've always been happier believing in something.
I could obtain sensations of carnal pleasure by lying in bed with a prostitute, but I have never done so and never intend to do so. I have had religious evangelists attempt this approach with me, and I find it as offensive now as when it was first posed to me. I am not a whore, and I will not ignore my better judgment in the long-term for some tingly sensations in the short-term.



TheKing
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,100
Location: Merced, California

21 Dec 2011, 12:45 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
....something--I don't care what (as long as you don't blow people up or screw with biology class).


http://www.npr.org/2011/12/20/144026606 ... -spiritual

Quote:
December 20, 2011

Eric Weiner's most recent book is Man Seeks God: My Flirtations with the Divine.

Surveys show religious people are happier than the secular. Why is this? Is it — as an atheist friend quipped — that "ignorance is bliss?" Not long ago, that's what I would have concluded. Like many people of my ilk — cerebral East Coaster, highly skeptical and, yes, latte drinking — I reflexively viewed the religious as less sophisticated. And, if I'm brutally honest here, somehow less intelligent, or at least more narrow-minded. I don't feel that way anymore.


I spent several years traveling the world, meeting deeply religious people from faiths as diverse as Buddhism and Catholicism, Taoism and Wicca. These people didn't check their brains at the temple door. They are intelligent, but theirs is an intelligence that extends beyond that of cold logic alone: an intuitive sense that I envy. And while it's true that some of those I met sought absolute certainty from their faith, the vast majority live comfortably with doubt and uncertainty. They fit squarely into a category that one psychologist calls the "Questers," those who see questions, not answers, as central to their religious experience.

Slowly, I've come to realize that I too am a Quester. To be clear: I consider myself a rationalist. I believe that reason, and its offshoot, science, are good. I also believe that there is more to the world than meets the eye, though I'd be hard-pressed to define what that "more" is. Am I an agnostic? Sort of, but I'm more active than that. We Questers do things. We meditate. We pray. And we do these things even though we don't fully believe in them.

What do you believe? That's our default question when it comes to matters of faith. Frankly, and with all due respect, I don't care what you believe. What do you experience? What do you do? Those are the more important questions.

I met a Kabbalist in Israel named Avraham, and he explained it like this. For years, he read religious texts but always wondered: "How do they know that?" One day, he shifted the question to: "What do they mean by that?" A subtle shift, but a crucial one, he told me.

Avraham is happy — happier than just about anyone I've ever met. Non-believers might say his happiness is based on a lie. But who are we to say what is true? As William James, that great chronicler of religious experience, put it: "Truth is what works." On the face of it, that sounds absurd. But James is speaking of a different kind of truth. If spiritual practices work for us, if they make us better, happier people, than they are true.

The debate between faith and reason is a false one. Science and religion don't occupy the same turf. Saying, "Now that we have science, there is no reason for religion" is like saying, "Now that we have the microwave oven, we have no use for Shakespeare." We need both, of course. Only then can we lead fully rounded lives. And, yes, happier ones, too.


In my journey from Baptist to atheist to deist and student of Stoic ethics, I can say I've always been happier believing in something.


even as an atheist i still believe in a higher power, the Laws of Nature are my higher power, the Universe is my higher power. though Stoic ethics appeal to me because the Stoics are related to the Cynics (Greek Cynics not modern Cynics) and my beliefs also relate to Greek Cynicism as well as moral and existential nihilism


_________________
WP Strident Atheist
If you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, have accepted him as your lord and savior, and are 100% proud of it, put this in your sig.


GoonSquad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 May 2007
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,748
Location: International House of Paincakes...

21 Dec 2011, 1:02 pm

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
In my journey from Baptist to atheist to deist and student of Stoic ethics, I can say I've always been happier believing in something.
I could obtain sensations of carnal pleasure by lying in bed with a prostitute, but I have never done so and never intend to do so. I have had religious evangelists attempt this approach with me, and I find it as offensive now as when it was first posed to me. I am not a whore, and I will not ignore my better judgment in the long-term for some tingly sensations in the short-term.


Hmm, I'm not sure I follow. If you're suggesting that you must abandon your reason in order to obtain "religious" happiness, I'd counter that your thinking is narrow and you lack a true understanding of happiness.

If you're an atheist, you probably don't think you have a "purpose" in life. BUT, you are stuck here... so, why not at least try to be happy?

As a stoic I doubt that "I" will survive death. All I know is that I'm here now and my only goal is to make the best of it by living a good and therefore happy life.

Stoics hold that true happiness is a byproduct of virtue. To be virtuous one must live according to nature (reason) and strive to be prudent, just, temperate, and courageous in all things.

Experiencing pleasure and being happy are not the same things. As a matter of fact, excessive pleasure seeking is a sure recipe for long term misery.


_________________
No man is free who is not master of himself.~Epictetus


kxmode
Supporting Member
Supporting Member

User avatar

Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,613
Location: In your neighborhood, knocking on your door. :)

21 Dec 2011, 1:17 pm

ruveyn wrote:
kxmode wrote:
This is why I believe in the bible. Although it was written by human hands it is divinely inspired as 2 Timothy 3:16 states. No human back then could know these things unless it was inspired by a supreme being. That supreme being identifies himself numerous times in his word the bible as Jehovah God... or Yahweh Elohim (if you're Jewish). :)


Do you know any of the writers of scriptures personally? Have you talked with them? If not, then who do you know they were inspired and even if they were inspired who inspired them?


You've already made it clear from past comments that you don't believe in God and you think the bible is a "book of fables". You and I don't see things the same, and for that reason alone I'm not even going to try and talk with you on your level. Besides, almost everything you write is borderline confrontational (and it's not just with me... you do it with everyone). I don't know if you mean to do this but it sure doesn't invite a response. Consider this my last reply to anything you post ruveyn...



WilliamWDelaney
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Apr 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,201

21 Dec 2011, 3:40 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
Hmm, I'm not sure I follow. If you're suggesting that you must abandon your reason in order to obtain "religious" happiness,
You're the one who started that. I was reacting to the idea that I should adopt a belief system just to get tingly feelings from believing it. No, sir. That's not for me. I think it's immoral to think that way.

Quote:
I'd counter that your thinking is narrow and you lack a true understanding of happiness.
No, I have a pretty sound concept of happiness. Furthermore, don't mistake the fact that I am loud, opinionated, temperamental, cynical, belligerent and generally over-the-top to mean that I suffer from a deficit there. That is my personality, and I accept it. Some people even manage to get along with me in spite of it, which is more testament to their saintly patience and forgiveness than any redeeming quality on my part.

The fact of the matter is that cheap sources of "happiness" do not sit well with me, and this includes the most vulgar concept of religion, thank you. When someone tells me, "Believe in JESUS! It makes you feel GOOD!" I feel like I'm being invited to lay with a crack whore and regard it as "lovemaking." It disgusts me. If I were being presented with a concept of religion that were the least bit aesthetic, my reaction would be different.

If a Christian wants me to feel interested in religion, tell me about your culture, people. You have a rich and beautiful heritage. I have studied it. That has a lot more meaning than something as transient as a sensation that only passes and leaves behind it a void.

Quote:
If you're an atheist, you probably don't think you have a "purpose" in life. BUT, you are stuck here... so, why not at least try to be happy?
I honestly don't see why most people have difficulty feeling contented with life. I think they ask too much of it and invest in it far too little. Once you have cured yourself of the idea that you are somehow naturally entitled to eternal life or some special importance in the universe, it is easy enough to cope with your own mortality. The way I see it, people tend to make an already difficult issue all but impregnable, here: finding substantial fulfillment in life is a lot of horse labor, but it is not entirely untenable. Be a good soldier...don't try to be the hero.



GoonSquad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 May 2007
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,748
Location: International House of Paincakes...

21 Dec 2011, 7:14 pm

^^^ Okay... I'm sorry, at first I thought you were responding to ANYTHING remotely related to my post. I'll leave you alone now. :P

:lol:


_________________
No man is free who is not master of himself.~Epictetus


WilliamWDelaney
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Apr 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,201

21 Dec 2011, 7:32 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
^^^ Okay... I'm sorry, at first I thought you were responding to ANYTHING remotely related to my post. I'll leave you alone now. :P

:lol:
Oh, dear. I misunderstood what you were getting at?



Vexcalibur
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,398

21 Dec 2011, 8:52 pm

ruveyn wrote:
kxmode wrote:
A person who is deeply interested in scientific discovery through a study of one aspect of science may conclude God does not exist. Is this fair to say God does not exist based on their limited research in one particular field of science? I don't think so. If a scientist were to combine their scientific knowledge with biblical knowledge they would find both are compatible.



Both assertions: God exists and God does not exist are untestable. From a scientific point of view the entire question is nonsense.

ruveyn
Specific God legends though are easy to test. It is simple to confirm that history does not agree with the legends of Moses, for example, so...


_________________
.


Vexcalibur
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,398

21 Dec 2011, 8:55 pm

kxmode wrote:
A person who is deeply interested in scientific discovery through a study of one aspect of science may conclude God does not exist. Is this fair to say God does not exist based on their limited research in one particular field of science? I don't think so. If a scientist were to combine their scientific knowledge with biblical knowledge they would find both are compatible.

For example the bible states the earth was created in six days. Through scientific research humans have learned that the the earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old.
Yes, exactly.

Quote:
In the Bible, the word “day” can refer to various periods of time.
- Who gets to decide what parts to take literally and what parts not to?

- Where in science is it stated that universe took 6 periods of time to be made?


Quote:
What about astronomy? While many hinted the world was round it wasn't until the last hundred years astronauts were able to actually show that the earth is in fact a sphere in space.

What does the bible say about this? Over 2,600 years ago in simple words Isaiah writes, "There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth."
But the earth is not a sphere...


Quote:
For example if you look at the universe as a whole and compare it with our world what do you find? Order and precision. And not at the atomic level, but you find it at the cosmic level. For example at this Nova video http://video.pbs.org/video/2163057527 Brian Greene states that scientists believe that 75% of what they think is empty space is actually called dark energy, and that this dark energy is responsible for pushing the universe apart... not constricting it. Surprisingly enough the percentage of dark matter is identical to amount of water on the earth. Coincidence?

Identical? Hahahaha

Quote:
Atoms - those building blocks that make up virtually everything in the universe - look like microscopic solar systems made up "stars" called electrons surrounded by orbiting "planets" called protons.
You have taken too much attention to high school books. Atoms are complex systems, yes but they don't really look like planets orbiting suns.


_________________
.


ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 89
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

21 Dec 2011, 9:13 pm

kxmode wrote:

Atoms - those building blocks that make up virtually everything in the universe - look like microscopic solar systems made up "stars" called electrons surrounded by orbiting "planets" called protons.


atoms make up about 6 percent of the universe. Most gravitating mass is not baryonic maerial (electrons, protons, neutrons, etc). 24 percent is so called "dark matter" which gravitates but is not baryonic. And the rest is so called "dark energy" which no one really knows much about.

Atoms do NOT resemble little solar systems. That is the Rutherford model of the atom which cannot be right because the electrons would collapse onto the nucleus. The electrons are more like a cloud of stuff in various shells determined by their energy. That is the model of the atom that goes with quantum physics.

ruveyn



GoonSquad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 May 2007
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,748
Location: International House of Paincakes...

21 Dec 2011, 9:59 pm

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
^^^ Okay... I'm sorry, at first I thought you were responding to ANYTHING remotely related to my post. I'll leave you alone now. :P

:lol:
Oh, dear. I misunderstood what you were getting at?


I'm just yanking your chain... You know us happy theists/deists. We can't resist a bit of teasing. It's all good. :wink:


_________________
No man is free who is not master of himself.~Epictetus