I'm a liberal, but liberals don't like me!

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Kraichgauer
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09 Jan 2012, 7:13 pm

ruveyn wrote:

CaptainTrips222 wrote:

These are very intelligent guesses, but I'm not sure if that's the cause. I tend to keep my political leanings to myself. They still just seem to automatically dislike me.

O.K. Do you bathe sufficiently often? Do you brush your teeth? To you avoid busting wind in the middle of a conversation? Are your manners good? Are you just being overly sensitive?

ruveyn

If he answers no to all those things, does that make him a conservative?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

visagrunt
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10 Jan 2012, 11:50 am

ruveyn wrote:

That is right. The modern liberal is really a Statist. A person who believes the government is the major or most important factor in society. Liberals are at root authoritarian. That want an all powerful State with which they can do Good.

ruveyn

That most certainly is not what a modern liberal is. Liberalism is based in the principle that the greatest prosperity comes from the widest liberty of the individual (both politically and economically) and is distinguished from libertarianism in the belief that government has a role in ensuring individual freedoms, primarily through the regulation of behaviours of other individuals that tend to the erosion of individual freedoms.

Statists exist along all points of the political spectrum. Fascists are statists, so are communists. The ultimate expression of Statism is Totalitarianism. But believing that there is a role for the state is not the same thing as being a Statist.

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Kraichgauer
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10 Jan 2012, 12:10 pm

visagrunt wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Thank you! You articulated an answer better than I could have.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

peebo
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10 Jan 2012, 12:22 pm

visagrunt wrote:

so are communists.

just a point of clarification, communists are not statists.

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ruveyn
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10 Jan 2012, 1:14 pm

peebo wrote:

visagrunt wrote:

so are communists.

just a point of clarification, communists are not statists.

You mean theoretical Marxists. Marxists believed the state would wither away once the Revolution had eliminated the capitalists as a class. In fact though, Communists supported tyrannical and totalitarian states in several nations. In the Soviet Union under Stalin, in Albania, and currently in North Korea.

Of course No True Communist is a Statist but there were hardly ever any True Communists.

ruveyn

peebo
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10 Jan 2012, 1:24 pm

the people of whom you speak can hardly be considered communists, since what they supported was far removed from communism regardless of how they referred to themselves.

visagrunt
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10 Jan 2012, 2:25 pm

My apologies, peebo, I noticed that error after I posted. I was thinking "communist" in the sense of Soviet, PRC and North Korean practices which was uncritical of me.

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10 Jan 2012, 2:39 pm

Well, let me know when the proletarian revolution comes about. Wouldn't want to miss it for the world.

peebo
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10 Jan 2012, 3:06 pm

visagrunt wrote:

My apologies, peebo, I noticed that error after I posted. I was thinking "communist" in the sense of Soviet, PRC and North Korean practices which was uncritical of me.

no problem at all, sir.

visagrunt
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10 Jan 2012, 5:17 pm

Tequila wrote:

Well, let me know when the proletarian revolution comes about. Wouldn't want to miss it for the world.

Don't worry. People like you--lap dogs of the imperialist, capitalist roaders, will be up against the wall very soon after people like me--intellectuals and supporters of the old regime.

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Tequila
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10 Jan 2012, 5:23 pm

visagrunt wrote:

Tequila wrote:

Well, let me know when the proletarian revolution comes about. Wouldn't want to miss it for the world.

Don't worry. People like you--lap dogs of the imperialist, capitalist roaders, will be up against the wall very soon after people like me--intellectuals and supporters of the old regime.

Yes. Although I think I'm more obnoxiously supportive of imperialism, capitalism, racism, nationalism, liberalism... any other isms we can throw in?

So, like I say, bring it on. If they manage to bring out more than a few thousand fruitcakes I'll be very surprised.

NeantHumain
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10 Jan 2012, 10:14 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Marxists certainly did/do support a state. In traditional Marxism, the first phase after revolution is the establishment of a "dictatorship of the proletariat," which enacts a socialist society and breaks down classes and inequalities of wealth. An anarchical society—late communism—is supposed to come about later, as the state withers away and socialist mores become ingrained custom.

ruveyn
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11 Jan 2012, 9:03 am

NeantHumain wrote:

In the end, no state. The State is only an intermediate stage. Of course in reality the transition to true socialism never comes. Every attempt to establish communism has failed and will continue to fail as long as humans are what they are. I will give you a hint. Your child and the neighbor's child are both drowning and you can only save one. Which one do you save?

Aha! I thought so.

ruveyn

J-P
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25 Apr 2012, 6:44 pm

Liberal are clique. Here in Quebec the Liberal clique is constitued of Charest,Syndicates and Mafias(not sure on this)

WilliamWDelaney
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25 Apr 2012, 7:28 pm

CaptainTrips222 wrote:

It's weird, but the people who seem to like me are usually on the conservative side. I say weird, because I'm a democrat.

What do you think?

Actually, I don't think that most liberals around here even accept that I am a liberal. I think that most of them here think I'm somewhere in the same league as Jesse Helms and Michael Savage. Why? Because they are ret*d scum. Sheeple.

I find that most educated liberals don't regard themselves as liberal or as affiliated with the political "left." Generally, a liberal tends to identify as an individual, not as someone who is affiliated with an ideology. Therefore, you probably get along perfectly well with liberals, but they simply don't bother telling you that they are liberal. These days, a liberal is practically anybody who doesn't talk about "conservatism" as if it's the answer to everything, and the meaning of it is getting more empty by the hour.

Edit: I can't believe I was drunk enough to get Jesse Helms confused with Jesse Jackson.

Last edited by WilliamWDelaney on 26 Apr 2012, 6:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Declension
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25 Apr 2012, 7:54 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Liberals are at root authoritarian. That want an all powerful State with which they can do Good.

It goes without saying that this is not how a liberal would describe the situation. I'll just give you my interpretation for the sake of balance:

A liberal recognises that people with power always have an increased ability to obtain more power. Therefore, any system will eventually be dominated by powerful special interests. A liberal wants the state to be powerful enough to cut other powers down to size, since the state is easier to control than other powers.

I should also point out that your post isn't quite true when it comes to certain matters. It tends to be liberals, not conservatives, who are sceptical of giving the state the most important power of all: the power to kill and torture people.

Last edited by Declension on 25 Apr 2012, 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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