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Master_Pedant
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18 Jan 2012, 2:19 pm

WhiteWidow wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Intellectual property doesn't exist. It is a state created monopoly.

Artists do this by producing their own work in the most literal sense. For years we've felt entitled to a safe and unregulated form of stealing called "Torrenting". It's time to crack down on this crime and create the jobs we've lost in retail and through start ups and get the economy moving. Seeing as how this will put capital back in the pockets of everybody, and consumer spending accounts for 70% of the GDP - wouldn't you say that SOPA is a positive thing?


This is a horrendously flawed argument, particularly because you completely ignore the enormous COSTS SOPA would impose on the Internet industry, both by shutting down startups that can't afford to rigorously police their sites and by ensuring a plethora of lawsuits (ever rising legal expenses) over whether given sites were practicing due diligence. The Entertainment Industry contributes A LOT LESS to the economy than Internet companies.

Dean Baker wrote:
The question that serious people would ask is what problem is the SOPA intended to address? There is still plenty of money being made by online distributors of music, movies, books and software. The problem seen by the top executives at Disney and the other promoters of the SOPA is that they want to make more.

A substantial amount of copyright-protected material does slip through the system, as does an even larger amount of material with ambiguous copyright status such as a home-made video with parts of a copyrighted song or material whose copyright may have expired. The big entertainment companies want to impose large costs on web intermediaries (which will be passed on to consumers) and make it more difficult for people to gain access to totally open material, in order to make them pay more money for their copyright-protected material.

Although the SOPA strategy of reducing access while raising prices could fit the dictionary definition of "job-killing regulation," its advocates have the incredible audacity to be touting the 19 million jobs at stake. People really should take a moment to look at the industry's website to see what might well rank as the most outrageous misrepresentation of economic reality ever to appear in a Washington policy debate.

The basic story is that if an industry is in any way directly or indirectly dependent on the output of a copyright-protected industry, then the jobs in that industry will be put at risk if Congress doesn't approve the SOPA. By this methodology, all the jobs in the shipping industry will be at risk if we end the tax credit for solar power, since some of the materials used in solar panels is imported. This is patently absurd, but if you work for the 1 percent, you can get such arguments taken seriously in Washington policy circles.

In reality, the higher costs that the SOPA will impose on consumers both directly, and indirectly by raising costs to intermediaries, are money out of their pocket. The additional money that will be collected by the entertainment industry is money that will not be spent in local stores or restaurants.

It's true that some of the money earned by entertainment industry will get back to writers, musicians and other creative workers, but this will be a very small amount compared with the additional cost to consumers. If we had forward thinking politicians in Washington, or economists who didn't sell their services to the highest bidder, policy would be focused on devising more efficient mechanisms for supporting creative work.

Copyright is an incredibly inefficient mechanism dating back from the 16th century. The costs of enforcement are soaring as the Internet makes it ever more difficult. This is a situation where we are relying on toll booths to pay for our roads, but it is becoming ever easier for travelers to evade the toll booths. Rather looking for alternative ways to finance road construction, we are building bigger more expensive toll booths and increasing the penalties for not paying tolls.


www.huffingtonpost.com/dean-baker/congr ... 29805.html


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WhiteWidow
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18 Jan 2012, 2:35 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
WhiteWidow wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Intellectual property doesn't exist. It is a state created monopoly.

Artists do this by producing their own work in the most literal sense. For years we've felt entitled to a safe and unregulated form of stealing called "Torrenting". It's time to crack down on this crime and create the jobs we've lost in retail and through start ups and get the economy moving. Seeing as how this will put capital back in the pockets of everybody, and consumer spending accounts for 70% of the GDP - wouldn't you say that SOPA is a positive thing?


This is a horrendously flawed argument, particularly because you completely ignore the enormous COSTS SOPA would impose on the Internet industry, both by shutting down startups that can't afford to rigorously police their sites and by ensuring a plethora of lawsuits (ever rising legal expenses) over whether given sites were practicing due diligence. The Entertainment Industry contributes A LOT LESS to the economy than Internet companies.

Dean Baker wrote:
The question that serious people would ask is what problem is the SOPA intended to address? There is still plenty of money being made by online distributors of music, movies, books and software. The problem seen by the top executives at Disney and the other promoters of the SOPA is that they want to make more.

A substantial amount of copyright-protected material does slip through the system, as does an even larger amount of material with ambiguous copyright status such as a home-made video with parts of a copyrighted song or material whose copyright may have expired. The big entertainment companies want to impose large costs on web intermediaries (which will be passed on to consumers) and make it more difficult for people to gain access to totally open material, in order to make them pay more money for their copyright-protected material.

Although the SOPA strategy of reducing access while raising prices could fit the dictionary definition of "job-killing regulation," its advocates have the incredible audacity to be touting the 19 million jobs at stake. People really should take a moment to look at the industry's website to see what might well rank as the most outrageous misrepresentation of economic reality ever to appear in a Washington policy debate.

The basic story is that if an industry is in any way directly or indirectly dependent on the output of a copyright-protected industry, then the jobs in that industry will be put at risk if Congress doesn't approve the SOPA. By this methodology, all the jobs in the shipping industry will be at risk if we end the tax credit for solar power, since some of the materials used in solar panels is imported. This is patently absurd, but if you work for the 1 percent, you can get such arguments taken seriously in Washington policy circles.

In reality, the higher costs that the SOPA will impose on consumers both directly, and indirectly by raising costs to intermediaries, are money out of their pocket. The additional money that will be collected by the entertainment industry is money that will not be spent in local stores or restaurants.

It's true that some of the money earned by entertainment industry will get back to writers, musicians and other creative workers, but this will be a very small amount compared with the additional cost to consumers. If we had forward thinking politicians in Washington, or economists who didn't sell their services to the highest bidder, policy would be focused on devising more efficient mechanisms for supporting creative work.

Copyright is an incredibly inefficient mechanism dating back from the 16th century. The costs of enforcement are soaring as the Internet makes it ever more difficult. This is a situation where we are relying on toll booths to pay for our roads, but it is becoming ever easier for travelers to evade the toll booths. Rather looking for alternative ways to finance road construction, we are building bigger more expensive toll booths and increasing the penalties for not paying tolls.


www.huffingtonpost.com/dean-baker/congr ... 29805.html


Quote:
Thank you for informing me that I'm among the 1%. I never knew. I do know, however, that I'm a working writer and piracy affects my bottom line. Despite your words, my income isn't anywhere near the 1% level - your lips to readers' ears.

This article is really wrong on so many levels, and I hope people do a little more research on the topic.

As the copyright owner of over thirty books, I won't be able to go to anyone and demand a site be taken down.

I'm not trying to rig anything. I just don't want to be stolen from - where is the harm in that? You would lock your doors, right? If a burglar broke in, wouldn't you want someone to stop them? Or try to get your stuff back? Or prevent it from happening again.

Rigged? Please. That's as silly as believing I'm a 1%er.



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18 Jan 2012, 2:38 pm

WhiteWidow wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Intellectual property doesn't exist. It is a state created monopoly.


That may be, but that's like saying "The gas industry doesn't exist because we need fuel to run our cars to get to work ect."

There's a plethora of opportunity in that one sentence. Industry, fuel, car, work. All of those things create a business model, because they're all commodities. This is a free market, and we have the right (maybe not you and i in the sense where we can begin creating monopolies or business' off something as big as oil) to create a profit for ourselves.

Artists do this by producing their own work in the most literal sense. For years we've felt entitled to a safe and unregulated form of stealing called "Torrenting". It's time to crack down on this crime and create the jobs we've lost in retail and through start ups and get the economy moving. Seeing as how this will put capital back in the pockets of everybody, and consumer spending accounts for 70% of the GDP - wouldn't you say that SOPA is a positive thing?


yet all of our lives are made better by the intellectual property of others,

in science and litterature everyone shares their knowledge and intellect because it is of mutual benefit, i dont see why music is any different, someone just wanted to milk the cow as it were

should it be illegal to borrow books from your friends?


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18 Jan 2012, 2:44 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epT4ewnOap8[/youtube]



Master_Pedant
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18 Jan 2012, 2:53 pm

WhiteWidow wrote:
Quote:
Thank you for informing me that I'm among the 1%. I never knew. I do know, however, that I'm a working writer and piracy affects my bottom line. Despite your words, my income isn't anywhere near the 1% level - your lips to readers' ears.

This article is really wrong on so many levels, and I hope people do a little more research on the topic.

As the copyright owner of over thirty books, I won't be able to go to anyone and demand a site be taken down.

I'm not trying to rig anything. I just don't want to be stolen from - where is the harm in that? You would lock your doors, right? If a burglar broke in, wouldn't you want someone to stop them? Or try to get your stuff back? Or prevent it from happening again.

Rigged? Please. That's as silly as believing I'm a 1%er.


Are you (or that commenter) able to read at all? Aside from throwing a hissy fit over the observation that entertainment moguls in the top 1% have the most to gain from the bill while consumers and intermediaries have the most to lose, said commenter completely ignores the paragraph (which I bolded show you'd notice it) where Baker does note that some money from copyrights trickles down to creative workers. The problem (which you failed to address) was that copyrights are an ineffective mechanism - it's funny, you're initial "argument" was that consumer spending would somehow benefit from this, which was soundly refuted. Care to shift the goalposts more?


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18 Jan 2012, 3:15 pm

To people actually curious about what this bill will do to the economy, here's a way to break it down:

Consumers/workers:

Hit by large hikes in cyber service fees due to intermediaries for many internet services having to offset gigantic costs in terms of policing sites.

Creative workers might gain a little bit - but this will be mitigated by people who really wanted pirated material from foreign countries easily subverting the SOPA blocks by typing in IPs directly or installing an application to do so.

Net result: Slight redistribution of income from non-creative worker consumers to creative worker consumers, overall loss to consumers.

Businesses

Legal industry benefits from a huge legal arms-race between Google, Facebook, etc and the Entertainment industry.

Entertainment industry benefits somewhat.

Google, facebook hit with greater costs, diminished profits.

Small cyber-companies that can't afford said costs of policing sites die out.

End result: Money redistributed from cyber industry to entertainment industry and legal industry.

Anyone who thinks this will rekindle the economy is fooling themselves. SOPA only redistributes wealth away from consumers and internet companies towards the Entertainment industry and (perhaps) creative workers - it doesn't create new wealth or increase the economy's productive capacity.


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18 Jan 2012, 3:31 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
To people actually curious about what this bill will do to the economy, here's a way to break it down:
...
Anyone who thinks this will rekindle the economy is fooling themselves. SOPA only redistributes wealth away from consumers and internet companies towards the Entertainment industry and (perhaps) creative workers - it doesn't create new wealth or increase the economy's productive capacity.


SOPA/PIPA is only the start of the problem. You might what to check out Cory Doctorow's keynote (28c3: The Coming War on General Purpose Computation) at the Chaos Communication Congress on Youtube.



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18 Jan 2012, 3:37 pm

Chipshorter wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
To people actually curious about what this bill will do to the economy, here's a way to break it down:
...
Anyone who thinks this will rekindle the economy is fooling themselves. SOPA only redistributes wealth away from consumers and internet companies towards the Entertainment industry and (perhaps) creative workers - it doesn't create new wealth or increase the economy's productive capacity.


SOPA/PIPA is only the start of the problem. You might what to check out Cory Doctorow's keynote (28c3: The Coming War on General Purpose Computation) at the Chaos Communication Congress on Youtube.


Can you embed the video?


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18 Jan 2012, 3:43 pm

alex wrote:
Can you embed the video?


I tried to before but got an error message about posting links not having made a quota of posts so far on here.

Edit: google 28c3: The coming war on general computation & you should find it



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18 Jan 2012, 6:00 pm

WhiteWidow wrote:
Artists do this by producing their own work in the most literal sense. For years we've felt entitled to a safe and unregulated form of stealing called "Torrenting". It's time to crack down on this crime and create the jobs we've lost in retail and through start ups and get the economy moving. Seeing as how this will put capital back in the pockets of everybody, and consumer spending accounts for 70% of the GDP - wouldn't you say that SOPA is a positive thing?

It's work only on the baseless assumption that consummers will pay for souless entertainment rather that, let's say, something to eat, once they will not be able to pirate it. The economy situation is difficult, and it's not with the stupid entertainment they offer now that Hollywood will make a lot of money to pay it's artists.

Videos with the song "Happy Birthday" song are already in the possibility to be shut down for rights infringements, SOPA intend to expand it to all Internet. SOPA will not save art, it will destroy it's soul by stepping on everything not approved by Hollywood majors.


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Last edited by Tollorin on 18 Jan 2012, 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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18 Jan 2012, 6:34 pm

Chipshorter wrote:
alex wrote:
Can you embed the video?
I tried to before but got an error message about posting links not having made a quota of posts so far on here.

Edit: google 28c3: The coming war on general computation & you should find it
Here ya go:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUEvRyemKSg[/youtube]


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18 Jan 2012, 6:37 pm

When an artist creates something that he or she feels is unique and put it out on the market, they often have the hope that it will start bringing in money. Whether or not their enterprise is lucrative, artists usually hope there will be some show of gratitude and appreciation for their efforts, and monetary contribution is a traditional method of showing appreciation for beauty or uniqueness. For some relatively enterprising artists, this is a primary source of income. Whether or not the artist is trying to make a living from it, the desire for some form of compensation is not an outrageous thing for the artist to expect.

In a way, an entrepreneur is like any artist. The entrepreneur opens the doors of a business in the hope that people will come to buy their product. They make a large investment in their enterprise to be sure, but the entrepreneur also makes an investment of faith in the public. Between the entrepreneur and the public, there is a bond of trust, and one of its stipulations is for the entrepreneur to portray his or her product or service in an accurate light, safeguard the safety of the consumer, and set a fair price. However, the other stipulation is that the consumer will pay for the product or service on-time, and it is assumed by extension that few members of the public would rob the entrepreneur, whether by direct theft or the distribution of cheap knock-offs.

In both cases, there is a mutual expectation of respect. Respect toward one another makes it possible for us to get along with one another with only a minimal employment of force, usury or carnal enticement. It smooths things over in a way that everyone involved ultimately benefits. I frankly am quite glad that we have this system. It works beautifully well.

Now, let me present you with a scenario. If you are an entrepreneur and you have patented a product, you clearly have an expectation that others respect your space. You don't want cheap knock-offs being circulated, and you would rather not have to take people to court over this. Obeying the law and respecting others are not that hard. Therefore, if you see the odd small-timer distributing copies of your product at half the price you are charging for it, it is your natural reaction to be upset. However, I ask you this: does some small-time phony really deserve to lose five years of his freedom? I think that is what some people are concerned about.



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18 Jan 2012, 7:15 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzqMoOk9NWc[/youtube]



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18 Jan 2012, 7:28 pm

Wikipedia is down I have become 70% dumber.


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Master_Pedant
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18 Jan 2012, 8:17 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
Wikipedia is down I have become 70% dumber.


Well, increase your knowledge level by reading one article that still is up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act


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18 Jan 2012, 8:21 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
Wikipedia is down I have become 70% dumber.


Well, increase your knowledge level by reading one article that still is up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act


Just push the "Esc" button before the screen blacks out.???