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Does anyone else not believe in feminism?

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pandabear
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21 Jan 2012, 10:01 am

Fnord wrote:
pandabear wrote:
1 Timothy 2 wrote:
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety

Obviously, the subjugation of women under male authority is an inherently Christian value.

:P


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But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.



Descartes
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21 Jan 2012, 10:31 am

donnie_darko wrote:
People who self describe as feminists believe that women suffer at the expense of men's privilege. While most feminists are not misandrists, this belief can very (logically, actually) lead to misandry. And my opposition to it is that I simply think it's wrong.


I think what you're describing is radical feminism as opposed to mainstream feminism.

Quote:
Radical feminism is a current theoretical perspective within feminism that focuses on the theory of patriarchy as a system of power that organizes society into a complex of relationships based on an assumption that "male supremacy"[1] oppresses women.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism

I think it's unfair to criticize feninism in its entirety because of one radical faction within the group. There are going to be radical factions within every political, religious, and social group.


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Fnord
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21 Jan 2012, 11:41 am

pandabear wrote:
Fnord wrote:
pandabear wrote:
1 Timothy 2 wrote:
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Obviously, the subjugation of women under male authority is an inherently Christian value.
1 Corinthians 11 wrote:
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

More obvious reasons why the writers of the Bible were misogynists, and why those who believe in the Bible hate women and fear feminism.



pandabear
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21 Jan 2012, 11:48 am

Fnord wrote:
pandabear wrote:
Fnord wrote:
pandabear wrote:
1 Timothy 2 wrote:
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Obviously, the subjugation of women under male authority is an inherently Christian value.
1 Corinthians 11 wrote:
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

More obvious reasons why the writers of the Bible were misogynists, and why those who believe in the Bible hate women and fear feminism.


I've only quoted Paul. King David and King Solomon both liked women a lot. :P



donnie_darko
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21 Jan 2012, 4:37 pm

LKL wrote:
In some ways, I think that the 'men should have a say' argument is a little bit of a straw man, like the parental notification laws. If a girl has a good relationship with her parents, or even a tolerable one - in short, if she trusts them to have her best interests in mind, even if they'll be mad - she's going to go to her parents when she needs help and advice on something really important. If she doesn't trust them, they're probably not the kind of parents who *should* have a say in what their daughter does.
Likewise, if a woman has any kind of a caring relationship with a guy, she's going to talk to him about getting pregnant and take his opinion into consideration. If she doesn't know him well or doesn't trust him, then he doesn't get much say in what she does with her body. In either case, the final choice has to be hers because she's the one who's pregnant (though I agree with hyperlexian: in the event that womb-transfers become medically possible, things might change).


True, most women are considerate enough to not abort a baby without factoring in the father's opinion, but I still see something incredibly unfair about aborting anyways. I mean wouldn't you be angry if your wife/girlfriend killed your unborn baby without your agreement it was the right thing to do? I would be incredibly sad.



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21 Jan 2012, 4:38 pm

Descartes wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
People who self describe as feminists believe that women suffer at the expense of men's privilege. While most feminists are not misandrists, this belief can very (logically, actually) lead to misandry. And my opposition to it is that I simply think it's wrong.


I think what you're describing is radical feminism as opposed to mainstream feminism.

Quote:
Radical feminism is a current theoretical perspective within feminism that focuses on the theory of patriarchy as a system of power that organizes society into a complex of relationships based on an assumption that "male supremacy"[1] oppresses women.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism

I think it's unfair to criticize feninism in its entirety because of one radical faction within the group. There are going to be radical factions within every political, religious, and social group.


But the fact is most feminists accept the idea that on a collective level, men victimize and leech off of women. Unless you consider simply believing men and women are equal, which I think the vast majority of people do and always have, feminism.

By feminism I mean people that self-identify with the label, not just people who believe in equality which is the dictionary definition.



donnie_darko
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21 Jan 2012, 4:39 pm

I mean, if believing in equal rights for the sexes makes you a feminist, does that mean if you believe in equality between black and white people, you're an Africanist?



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21 Jan 2012, 4:40 pm

You gotta try a bit of feminism, innit.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oftOCN1jkNo[/youtube]



LKL
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21 Jan 2012, 5:41 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
LKL wrote:
In some ways, I think that the 'men should have a say' argument is a little bit of a straw man, like the parental notification laws. If a girl has a good relationship with her parents, or even a tolerable one - in short, if she trusts them to have her best interests in mind, even if they'll be mad - she's going to go to her parents when she needs help and advice on something really important. If she doesn't trust them, they're probably not the kind of parents who *should* have a say in what their daughter does.
Likewise, if a woman has any kind of a caring relationship with a guy, she's going to talk to him about getting pregnant and take his opinion into consideration. If she doesn't know him well or doesn't trust him, then he doesn't get much say in what she does with her body. In either case, the final choice has to be hers because she's the one who's pregnant (though I agree with hyperlexian: in the event that womb-transfers become medically possible, things might change).


True, most women are considerate enough to not abort a baby without factoring in the father's opinion, but I still see something incredibly unfair about aborting anyways. I mean wouldn't you be angry if your wife/girlfriend killed your unborn baby without your agreement it was the right thing to do? I would be incredibly sad.

If the zef in question was in my body, I would consider it battery against me; if the zef was in their body, then no. The fact that half a zef's DNA comes from me does not make it 'my child,' it only makes it a zef that has some of my DNA.



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21 Jan 2012, 5:50 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Feminism definitely, most assuredly exists.


+1


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Descartes
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21 Jan 2012, 5:50 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
Descartes wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
People who self describe as feminists believe that women suffer at the expense of men's privilege. While most feminists are not misandrists, this belief can very (logically, actually) lead to misandry. And my opposition to it is that I simply think it's wrong.


I think what you're describing is radical feminism as opposed to mainstream feminism.

Quote:
Radical feminism is a current theoretical perspective within feminism that focuses on the theory of patriarchy as a system of power that organizes society into a complex of relationships based on an assumption that "male supremacy"[1] oppresses women.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism

I think it's unfair to criticize feninism in its entirety because of one radical faction within the group. There are going to be radical factions within every political, religious, and social group.


But the fact is most feminists accept the idea that on a collective level, men victimize and leech off of women. Unless you consider simply believing men and women are equal, which I think the vast majority of people do and always have, feminism.


Not to sound antagonistic, but how would you know? How many self-proclaimed feminists have you encountered? You're making all these generalizations about feminists.


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Last edited by Descartes on 21 Jan 2012, 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LKL
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21 Jan 2012, 5:56 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
I mean, if believing in equal rights for the sexes makes you a feminist, does that mean if you believe in equality between black and white people, you're an Africanist?
The term 'africanist' does not have the history that the term 'feminist' has.



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21 Jan 2012, 11:48 pm

Women are looked down upon if they don't wear makeup and fashionable cloths.
Not following this gender role has prevented my from getting a job.

Male interests are considered to be sports,politics and music.
Womens interests are considered to be fashion,celebrity gossip and raising children.
I think this is absolute crap since I fit in more with the male stereotype than the female.

I consider myself to be a feminist but Not superior to males. It should just be about equality and nothing else.

I can understand the point of the OP. Men are expected to be tough and go to war. I hate hearing someone use the phrase "Man Up"
Unfortunately I have heard this told to men many times.

sexism exists for both sexes but females do seem to be discriminated against worse.


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22 Jan 2012, 1:09 am

I, for one, welcome our feminine overlords


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22 Jan 2012, 2:08 am

Interesting response to a pro-life feminist here;

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/o ... _multiline

How about a big sign that says 'Susan B. Anthony not welcome'.


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22 Jan 2012, 2:27 am

artrat wrote:
Women are looked down upon if they don't wear makeup and fashionable cloths.
Not following this gender role has prevented my from getting a job.

Male interests are considered to be sports,politics and music.
Womens interests are considered to be fashion,celebrity gossip and raising children.
I think this is absolute crap since I fit in more with the male stereotype than the female.

I consider myself to be a feminist but Not superior to males. It should just be about equality and nothing else.

I can understand the point of the OP. Men are expected to be tough and go to war. I hate hearing someone use the phrase "Man Up"
Unfortunately I have heard this told to men many times.

sexism exists for both sexes but females do seem to be discriminated against worse.


this is very true, and unfortunately all too often people don't seem cognisant of more subtle forms of subjugation.


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