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Country club conservatives Newt Gingrich and Mitt Romney

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marshall
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23 Jan 2012, 10:03 am

ruveyn wrote:
Oodain wrote:

so what is truly yours?



That which came to be because of MY efforts. That is what is mine. The same principle applies to YOU.

Neither YOU nor I have any right to prey on third parties to solve problems that we perceive.

If I read you correctly you think everything belongs to everybody and there should be no private property. We should all be tied together in a greasy squooshy knot. No thank you. Death is preferable and if you are serious in proposing it you are making war on your fellow humans. That has consequences.

In a knock down drag out fight, I will fight for what is MINE so I can leave it to MY children, not your children. If it comes to blows, it will be a war to the Death.

The problem with you socialist savages is that you do not distinguish between MINE and YOURS.

What is Mine is Mine and What is Yours is Yours.


ruveyn

MINE MINE MINE!! ! says the savage who would rather have the mentally ill starve on the street. You threaten violence or civil war, I say bring it on. Liberals can own guns too you know.

What effort did it take to be born in a first world country with tax funded institutions that foster economic prosperity? All is relative. I think your effort would be worth far less working in a third world sweat shop factory. Also, was it your effort that stopped you from being born with a debilitating illness that you couldn't afford to treat?



ruveyn
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23 Jan 2012, 10:34 am

marshall wrote:

What effort did it take to be born in a first world country with tax funded institutions that foster economic prosperity? All is relative. I think your effort would be worth far less working in a third world sweat shop factory. Also, was it your effort that stopped you from being born with a debilitating illness that you couldn't afford to treat?


Pure happenstance. If you are Lucky, then enjoy your luck. And if you are Unlucky, than too damned bad. Life is Unfair. Keep this in mind: Sh*t Happens.

ruveyn



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23 Jan 2012, 11:20 am

ruveyn wrote:

We can't afford the Welfare (or Warfare) State. If you are so concerning with poor mentally ill women contribute to their welfare out of YOUR pocket, not mine.

ruveyn


The problem, of course, being even if one were a somewhat well connected upper middle class professional who donated 60% of their income to charities and lobbied everyone they knew to do the same, THAT STILL WOULDN'T FILL THE HOLE LEFT BY CUTTING PROGRAMS. And many charities are ran by religious proselytizers (given the privileges religious charities get in terms of start-up next to others). Incidentally, due to economies of scale and competitive overlap/great percentage of resources going to fund-raising, public social welfare programs can be more efficient than private charities.


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ruveyn
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23 Jan 2012, 12:43 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
The problem, of course, being even if one were a somewhat well connected upper middle class professional who donated 60% of their income to charities and lobbied everyone they knew to do the same, THAT STILL WOULDN'T FILL THE HOLE LEFT BY CUTTING PROGRAMS. And many charities are ran by religious proselytizers (given the privileges religious charities get in terms of start-up next to others). Incidentally, due to economies of scale and competitive overlap/great percentage of resources going to fund-raising, public social welfare programs can be more efficient than private charities.


In your dreams. Anything done by the government has two line items added: Fat and Corruption.

If private folks won't help the poor or won't help enough, then too bad for the poor. Life is Unfair and Sh*t happens.

ruveyn



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23 Jan 2012, 12:49 pm

ruveyn wrote:

In your dreams. Anything done by the government has two line items added: Fat and Corruption.



Tell me, oh so radical empiricist, how you individually checked each government department and compared it to analogous private organizations to come to that conclusion? Or how you empirically checked out the operations of government programs and concluded that the benefits from economies of scale were outweighed by bureaucratic complexity.

My guess is that you didn't. Despite your supposed hard-headed, intellectual rigor, most of your political opinions are pretty much analogous to "Uneducated Uncle Bob ramblings on the nature of politics".

ruveyn wrote:
If private folks won't help the poor or won't help enough, then too bad for the poor. Life is Unfair and Sh*t happens.

ruveyn


And a society that idly lets enough "sh*t happen" while possessing the means to partially remedy them is doomed to ruin.


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ruveyn
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23 Jan 2012, 12:58 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:

And a society that idly lets enough "sh*t happen" while possessing the means to partially remedy them is doomed to ruin.


So you assert. That has not yet been shown empirically. Europe lived through several centuries of poverty and squalor. What put an end to it was the Black Death which struck down wealthy and poor alike.,

If the plague had not happened the feudal system might have gone on indefinitely.

ruveyn



marshall
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23 Jan 2012, 6:08 pm

ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:

What effort did it take to be born in a first world country with tax funded institutions that foster economic prosperity? All is relative. I think your effort would be worth far less working in a third world sweat shop factory. Also, was it your effort that stopped you from being born with a debilitating illness that you couldn't afford to treat?


Pure happenstance. If you are Lucky, then enjoy your luck. And if you are Unlucky, than too damned bad. Life is Unfair. Keep this in mind: Sh*t Happens.

ruveyn


Life isn't as unfair as selfish people who make it unfair for their perceived benefit.



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23 Jan 2012, 6:32 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
ruveyn wrote:

In your dreams. Anything done by the government has two line items added: Fat and Corruption.



Tell me, oh so radical empiricist, how you individually checked each government department and compared it to analogous private organizations to come to that conclusion? Or how you empirically checked out the operations of government programs and concluded that the benefits from economies of scale were outweighed by bureaucratic complexity.

My guess is that you didn't. Despite your supposed hard-headed, intellectual rigor, most of your political opinions are pretty much analogous to "Uneducated Uncle Bob ramblings on the nature of politics".
I agree, it's pathetic how he pretentiously portrays himself as rigorously logical while he invariably herps and derps the same old crap over and over again. I would think rigorous analysis would take a lot more than just rote learning.



Last edited by AceOfSpades on 23 Jan 2012, 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

marshall
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23 Jan 2012, 6:34 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:

And a society that idly lets enough "sh*t happen" while possessing the means to partially remedy them is doomed to ruin.


So you assert. That has not yet been shown empirically. Europe lived through several centuries of poverty and squalor. What put an end to it was the Black Death which struck down wealthy and poor alike.,

If the plague had not happened the feudal system might have gone on indefinitely.

ruveyn


Society has advanced since the dark ages. I'm afraid you're on the losing side of the battle. Even Costa Rica, a country with only a quarter the GDP per capita as the US, takes better care of the health of its uninsured citizens than the US does.



AceOfSpades
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23 Jan 2012, 6:35 pm

marshall wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:

What effort did it take to be born in a first world country with tax funded institutions that foster economic prosperity? All is relative. I think your effort would be worth far less working in a third world sweat shop factory. Also, was it your effort that stopped you from being born with a debilitating illness that you couldn't afford to treat?


Pure happenstance. If you are Lucky, then enjoy your luck. And if you are Unlucky, than too damned bad. Life is Unfair. Keep this in mind: Sh*t Happens.

ruveyn


Life isn't as unfair as selfish people who make it unfair for their perceived benefit.
This. A political system isn't life itself, it's a way of making life better. s**t doesn't just happen, s**t happens systematically.



marshall
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23 Jan 2012, 6:58 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
ruveyn wrote:

In your dreams. Anything done by the government has two line items added: Fat and Corruption.



Tell me, oh so radical empiricist, how you individually checked each government department and compared it to analogous private organizations to come to that conclusion? Or how you empirically checked out the operations of government programs and concluded that the benefits from economies of scale were outweighed by bureaucratic complexity.

My guess is that you didn't. Despite your supposed hard-headed, intellectual rigor, most of your political opinions are pretty much analogous to "Uneducated Uncle Bob ramblings on the nature of politics".
I agree, it's pathetic how he pretentiously portrays himself as rigorously logical while he invariably herps and derps the same old crap over and over again. I would think rigorous analysis would take a lot more than just rote learning.


It's really a pointless argument as all he's doing is forcefully stating his opinion, and all I can do is respond the same.

In any case, how a political system operates should be determined through a democratic process. It's the only peaceful way to resolve differences. It's called living in a society. You don't get to "fight to the death for what's yours", unless you want to join some idiot fringe militia and spend your entire life hiding out in the wilderness evading the IRS. Extremist individualism is an infantile solipsistic philosophy. I don't like everything the government does with the taxes I've paid to it either.



Last edited by marshall on 23 Jan 2012, 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AceOfSpades
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23 Jan 2012, 7:10 pm

marshall wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
ruveyn wrote:

In your dreams. Anything done by the government has two line items added: Fat and Corruption.



Tell me, oh so radical empiricist, how you individually checked each government department and compared it to analogous private organizations to come to that conclusion? Or how you empirically checked out the operations of government programs and concluded that the benefits from economies of scale were outweighed by bureaucratic complexity.

My guess is that you didn't. Despite your supposed hard-headed, intellectual rigor, most of your political opinions are pretty much analogous to "Uneducated Uncle Bob ramblings on the nature of politics".
I agree, it's pathetic how he pretentiously portrays himself as rigorously logical while he invariably herps and derps the same old crap over and over again. I would think rigorous analysis would take a lot more than just rote learning.


It's really a pointless as all he's doing is forcefully stating his opinion, and all I can do is respond the same.

In any case, how a political system operates should be determined through a democratic process. It's the only peaceful way to resolve differences. It's called living in a society. You don't get to "fight to the death for what's yours", unless you want to join some idiot fringe militia and spend your entire life hiding out in the wilderness evading the IRS. Extremist individualism is an infantile solipsistic philosophy. I don't like everything the government does with the taxes I've paid to it either.
Agreed. I think extreme individualism and a Government are incompatible. The whole purpose that the highest position of a hierarchy serves is not only to arbitrate personal conflicts but to arbitrate resource distribution. This is how it works in every tribe, pack, flock, or whatever. Society has conflicting interests over both space and resources, so to arbitrate one but not the other is absurd.



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23 Jan 2012, 7:23 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
The problem, of course, being even if one were a somewhat well connected upper middle class professional who donated 60% of their income to charities and lobbied everyone they knew to do the same, THAT STILL WOULDN'T FILL THE HOLE LEFT BY CUTTING PROGRAMS. And many charities are ran by religious proselytizers (given the privileges religious charities get in terms of start-up next to others). Incidentally, due to economies of scale and competitive overlap/great percentage of resources going to fund-raising, public social welfare programs can be more efficient than private charities.


In your dreams. Anything done by the government has two line items added: Fat and Corruption.

If private folks won't help the poor or won't help enough, then too bad for the poor. Life is Unfair and Sh*t happens.

ruveyn


But will you think that if you're suddenly left without a home, (God forbid) your family, and your health goes south? Will you be willing to just shrug your shoulders, and say, "Well, life's unfair and s**t happens."

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



ruveyn
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23 Jan 2012, 7:26 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

But will you think that if you're suddenly left without a home, (God forbid) your family, and your health goes south? Will you be willing to just shrug your shoulders, and say, "Well, life's unfair and sh** happens."

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Well I would feel bad and sad but I do not expect others to sacrifice their welfare to mine just because I am in a tight spot. I would not do it for them, and I don't expect them to do it for me.

ruveyn



marshall
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23 Jan 2012, 7:48 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

But will you think that if you're suddenly left without a home, (God forbid) your family, and your health goes south? Will you be willing to just shrug your shoulders, and say, "Well, life's unfair and sh** happens."

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Well I would feel bad and sad but I do not expect others to sacrifice their welfare to mine just because I am in a tight spot. I would not do it for them, and I don't expect them to do it for me.

ruveyn


The idea that nobody ever has to sacrifice anything for anyone else is absurd. You're old enough that you were alive during WWII. The young men who were drafted into the military and required to risk their lives offered a much greater sacrifice to the common good than any amount of tax money you've ever been forced to pay. To justify coerced sacrifice in one instance and not the other is inconsistent.



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23 Jan 2012, 7:58 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

But will you think that if you're suddenly left without a home, (God forbid) your family, and your health goes south? Will you be willing to just shrug your shoulders, and say, "Well, life's unfair and sh** happens."

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Well I would feel bad and sad but I do not expect others to sacrifice their welfare to mine just because I am in a tight spot. I would not do it for them, and I don't expect them to do it for me.

ruveyn


Easy to say that now...

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer