"We're all searching for answers"

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Vigilans
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10 Feb 2012, 9:15 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

Mmmm...I must be too dull to get it.

Certainly not. If my message is not completely clear then the fault is mine in not articulating it well enough

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

If anything I always felt like atheism was closer to the be-all-end all of 'there's nothing hereafter - tadaaah!!', and at this point I am sincerely an atheist.

I think that would be closer to "strong atheism" then the kind I personally proscribe to. I think its more a rejection of the concepts of heaven and hell. Additionally a strong point in our favor is that your mind is physically in your body and damage to a brain can change a personality; when your brain dies, you die. Its not as if you'll mind all that much afterwards. My own feelings on god/s are roughly as follows (from another recent thread):

Quote:

I think the best explanation for the universe, everything in it, and life as we know it, is scientific. Likewise if a God presented itself to me I would consider it to have evolved from processes that are universal in space time and thus more of an extraterrestrial/extradimensional/extrauniversal concept. I don't say that God/s definitively do not exist, because I cannot know that for certain, but I do feel they are unnecessary for a working theory of the universe.

I hope that at least explains a little bit about my own personal feelings. I'm not really anti-God, I'm more of an anti-supernaturalist if that makes any sense

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

Who said anything about the unknowable qualities being explained just because one believes in god? Moreover, who said anything about there being an established purpose?

Anyone that claims to have all the answers knows nothing.

These are concepts that are inherent to the concept of intelligent creation... Additionally, I find theism seems to offer every answer and yet no answers

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

What does it have to do with faith? Absolutely nothing. That was precisely my point. Religion, spirituality... things of this nature are not the sole source for the search just because one believes in a higher power. You speak in absolutes. If one believes in a higher power, then one must believe they have all the answers and that would render scientific discoveries moot. This is not necessarily so.

Your point, as I understand it, was that "People of faith have other means of discovery. Its called science" or something. That is not actually relevant to the discussion (don't take that the wrong way), I know most people who believe in God/s are aware of and consider scientific facts. However one cannot use science to investigate the concepts of faith. I'm not arguing that people who believe in God cannot be scientific minded.

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10 Feb 2012, 9:19 pm

I thought we were talking about the pursuit of knowledge on the universe. I never suggested science should be used in religious or spiritual pursuits. I was offering up another way those with faith seek truth. Nothing more, nothing less.

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TeaEarlGreyHot
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10 Feb 2012, 9:20 pm

Vigilans wrote:

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

These are concepts that are inherent to the concept of intelligent creation... Additionally, I find theism seems to offer every answer and yet no answers.

Then I've been doing it wrong my entire life. Luckily, I have you to correct this mistake.

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techstepgenr8tion
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10 Feb 2012, 9:24 pm

Vigilans wrote:

Quote:

I hope that at least explains a little bit about my own personal feelings. I'm not really anti-God, I'm more of an anti-supernaturalist if that makes any sense

It may, just that even looking at the way the world works I can't posit a plan to anything organized or sentient anymore. To do so, at least for me, seems too agonizing in terms of either an utter deadbeat or, something so huggy-touchy-feely about having survived life that its just too unlike here and guard-disolving (let alone Sylvia Brown out-on-a-limb) to be worth considering while here.

I guess for me I started with the pillars of omniscience, omnipotence, and for a god to be a God in that sense it would only make sense if it existed outside of time - ie. built time and space a bit like Anthony Hopkins built the marble tracks in Fracture or how Heron of Alexandria built his mechanical plays - from beginning to end with no intervention because the whole entire structure past present and future was crafted by him as he lived in a timeline that isn't connected to ours but where ours could be something more like a three dimensional object (think of something like a Harry Potter vs. JK Rowling relationship where JK has his reality in a book and can read whatever page she wants whenever she wants). For that God to exist, to me, meant that there was no excuse for anything to happen - ever - that wasn't fully of his/her will. Hence, evil and everything else starts to unravel, especially as quite often it vastly exceeds character-building doses in this life and rather starts deconstructing us.

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10 Feb 2012, 9:26 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

So then... you were saying that theists use science to discover as well? Absolutely. But ultimately theism amounts to "God did it" so even their discoveries are done with this in the back of their minds. Nothing wrong with that, anybody contributing to the scientific method is good with me. But they have still made a conclusion about the purpose and nature of the universe that someone who doesn't have these beliefs does not

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10 Feb 2012, 9:28 pm

Vigilans wrote:

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

What I'm trying to tell you is that not everyone that believes in god draws these conclusion you speak of. Then again, I'm a Deist and you speak of Theists. :shrug:

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10 Feb 2012, 9:28 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

These are concepts that are inherent to the concept of intelligent creation... Additionally, I find theism seems to offer every answer and yet no answers.

Then I've been doing it wrong my entire life. Luckily, I have you to correct this mistake.

No need to be snarky... I haven't actually insulted theism, I'm just trying to discuss an observation I have made over the years about it

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10 Feb 2012, 9:29 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

What I'm trying to tell you is that not everyone that believes in god draws these conclusion you speak of. Then again, I'm a Deist and you speak of Theists. :shrug:

Deism, theism, anything that posits an intelligent process of creation is making a conclusion...

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10 Feb 2012, 9:30 pm

Suggesting I drop the snark is like telling me not to breathe. You should know that about me by now... :lol:

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10 Feb 2012, 9:31 pm

Vigilans wrote:

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

What I'm trying to tell you is that not everyone that believes in god draws these conclusion you speak of. Then again, I'm a Deist and you speak of Theists. :shrug:

Deism, theism, anything that posits an intelligent process of creation is making a conclusion...

I didn't say God was intelligent...

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10 Feb 2012, 9:36 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

I didn't say God was intelligent...

Now we're getting into a discussion not dissimilar from a thread I started a few months ago about the nature of God

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

Suggesting I drop the snark is like telling me not to breathe. You should know that about me by now... :lol:

lol I just don't want to offend you

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10 Feb 2012, 9:39 pm

Vigilans wrote:

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

I didn't say God was intelligent...

Now we're getting into a discussion not dissimilar from a thread I started a few months ago about the nature of God

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

Suggesting I drop the snark is like telling me not to breathe. You should know that about me by now... :lol:

lol I just don't want to offend you

I refuse to debate the nature of god because, like I've already said it's a complete mystery to me.

No need to worry about offending me. I'm a big girl. Been debating since I can remember. ^_^

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11 Feb 2012, 4:45 am

But if God is a complete mystery, all you've really done is take the mystery of the universe and given it a name. You still have no idea about the nature of God, whether it even has intelligence or motive. And if you're going to do that, I'd recommend giving it a new name. Calling it "God" is bringing with it all the baggage of Christianity, which has some very definite ideas on the nature of God, and human brains aren't good at separating out two concepts with the same name.

This is a common fault with the ontological argument. Religious apologists try to reason God into existence by stating that a perfect being would not be perfect if he didn't exist (which is a fallacy, but let's not get into that now). However, this only argues the existence of a perfect being. Calling it God doesn't then imply any of the other qualities of the Christian God, but for many people they think that's enough. You need to do a lot more than that, and an unfathomable God makes that tricky.

What *have* you reasoned about the nature of God so far?

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11 Feb 2012, 5:40 am

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

I refuse to debate the nature of god because, like I've already said it's a complete mystery to me.

You believe in god?

You refuse to even discuss the nature of this thing you believe in because you know absolutely nothing about it?

Why do you believe in a concept that you claim has no concept??

Why call it a god, why call it anything, why even use a name for it, does it have one????

Are you not simply an atheist masking yourself as a deist by claiming there is a god, yet reserving any definition of your usage of the word god,. Aren't you essentially claiming to believe in something you cannot or will not define? How can that happen, how do you do this? This strikes me as wildly irrational. And not as in irrational belief, but that is it even irrational that you could have a belief in this. I cannot fathom how to rectify your words into something understandable.

Please explain.

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11 Feb 2012, 5:50 am

Vigilans wrote:

This is a phrase I often hear repeated by many of the faithful and the faith-full. That the belief in God is just another way of finding truth about the universe, or whatever. But... if you have "found" God... then... what answers are left for you to search for, now? A God is literally the be-all and end-all of it, there is nothing else to know; to even try is unnecessary and takes one further from God, to the point of blasphemy. In fact many famous religious figures have espoused this view including Martin Luther.

The truth is: if you have decided to believe in God, or generic supernatural explanations for things, then you're done searching, so please don't try to equate faith in the unprovable with actual "voyages" of discovery. The people who are actually searching for answers are those who admit they don't know what it is all about, but who do not accept a simple answer that requires immense amounts of faith to believe.

This argument presupposes that there is no divine creator at the beginning of the chain of causality in the universe. One can be an avid lover of science and religious at the same time, though it takes a special kind of appreciation for both science and religion.

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11 Feb 2012, 12:52 pm

NarcissusSavage wrote:

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

I refuse to debate the nature of god because, like I've already said it's a complete mystery to me.

1) I see no point in debating something neither side could possibly know.
2) When did I say there was no concept? God is many things to many people, I'm no exception. I have my ideas, and would gladly discuss them but not in a debate because it's not up for debate.
3) I call it god for clarification, nothing more.
4) Don't label me, especially after I've already told you what I am. Just because you don't understand my stance doesn't mean I am wrong.

Explain what, exactly?

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