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Let's abolish all political parties!

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Raptor
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11 Feb 2012, 6:19 pm

Declension wrote:

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I have come to the conclusion that Americans hate their government because there are only two parties. You need reform of your system so that there can be more than two parties.


Then we’d just have more parties fighting.
I wouldn’t necessarily say that Americans hate their government.
Some of us mistrust it while others want it to run our lives.
Not mentioning any political affiliations, though.

DC wrote:
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How about the US bans everyone that has ever been in the military from standing for public office?
Will stop blood thirsty idiots from running the country and invading/slaughtering people all the time.

:roll:
Bloodthirsty idiots? Real diplomatic way to express your feelings about veterans.

Vigilans wrote:
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I don't think political parties are avoidable unfortunately. During the time period when the US didn't "technically" have any there were still Jeffersonians and Hamiltonians when it came to economics (one of the early issues being over a Federal bank), or Federals vs State autonomists. Organized political groups are inevitable in US or related systems.


True; I don’t think dissolving the parties would last very long even though I like the idea in principle. We’re a diverse and competitive lot and tend to team up one way or another.



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11 Feb 2012, 6:22 pm

Longshanks wrote:

2) It cuts down the influence of special interests and lobbyists! :twisted:


What??! ! Every representative being an island makes lobbyists a hell of a lot more powerful, as "principled" politicians are no longer able to rely on the party apparatus for financial or electoral support.


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11 Feb 2012, 6:23 pm

Vigilans wrote:
I don't think political parties are avoidable unfortunately. During the time period when the US didn't "technically" have any there were still Jeffersonians and Hamiltonians when it came to economics (one of the early issues being over a Federal bank), or Federals vs State autonomists. Organized political groups are inevitable in US or related systems


Y'know, I was about to post something like this, but you beat me to it! But, yeah, that's absolutely correct. Dissolve the parties, and people will simply gravitate toward other like minded people in regard to politics. Plus, politicians are too used to having a political machine behind them that will support, finance, and get the vote out for them.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Declension
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11 Feb 2012, 6:23 pm

Fnord wrote:
Coalition? Do you mean like the one that's running the Greek economy into the ground? Or the one that's making Italy such a world-class power?


I think you're mixing up a lot of different things. The main problems in Greece and Italy are fiscal irresponsibility, political corruption and tax avoidance. What does that have to do with whether they use a proportional system of government?

There is a list of countries that use proportional representation on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation

They are not all basket-cases.



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11 Feb 2012, 6:26 pm

Declension wrote:
There is a list of countries that use proportional representation on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation

They are not all basket-cases.


Heck, Switzerland is on that list.



Fnord
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11 Feb 2012, 6:27 pm

Declension wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Coalition? Do you mean like the one that's running the Greek economy into the ground? Or the one that's making Italy such a world-class power?
I think you're mixing up a lot of different things. The main problems in Greece and Italy are fiscal irresponsibility, political corruption and tax avoidance. What does that have to do with whether they use a proportional system of government?There is a list of countries that use proportional representation on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation They are not all basket-cases.

Not all basket cases, but how many Majority-Rule, Two-Party governments are more successful than that of the U. S. of A.?

And why is it that people who don't live in the States, are not citizens of the States, and are not even government leaders themselves, keep trying to "suggest" a better way to run America's government?



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11 Feb 2012, 6:28 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Longshanks wrote:

2) It cuts down the influence of special interests and lobbyists! :twisted:


What??! ! Every representative being an island makes lobbyists a hell of a lot more powerful, as "principled" politicians are no longer able to rely on the party apparatus for financial or electoral support.


"Principled" politicians: Now that's got to be the oxymoron of the month.
:lmao:



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11 Feb 2012, 6:28 pm

Fnord wrote:

And why is it that people who don't live in the States, are not citizens of the States, and are not even government leaders themselves, keep trying to "suggest" a better way to run America's government?


Because they have distance and perspective?

Honestly, how can you write such stupid crap?


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11 Feb 2012, 6:31 pm

Fnord wrote:
And why is it that people who don't live in the States, are not citizens of the States, and are not even government leaders themselves, keep trying to "suggest" a better way to run America's government?


I'm sorry that you take it personally. It's just that I am often exposed to the things that Americans complain about. Americans complain about their government more than any other country, as far as I can tell. And I often can't relate to them. I wonder why I can't relate to them, and I have come to the conclusion that it is because there are many influential political parties in New Zealand, and so I don't feel disenfranchised.

It's just an idea, a diagnosis. I admit that I don't understand what it is like to live in the US.



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11 Feb 2012, 6:31 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Fnord wrote:
And why is it that people who don't live in the States, are not citizens of the States, and are not even government leaders themselves, keep trying to "suggest" a better way to run America's government?
Because they have distance and perspective?

There needs to be more distance and less perspective, then.

Master_Pedant wrote:
Honestly, how can you write such stupid crap?

Stupid? Crap?

Just say, "I disagree" and leave it at that.



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11 Feb 2012, 6:37 pm

Fnord wrote:
Not all basket cases, but how many Majority-Rule, Two-Party governments are more successful than that of the U. S. of A.?


That's like asking how much more successful Germany was under the NSDAP than Italy was under the PNF.

Fnord wrote:
And why is it that people who don't live in the States, are not citizens of the States, and are not even government leaders themselves, keep trying to "suggest" a better way to run America's government?


I live in the States and think that proportional representation facilitates precisely what the Founders intended: A system that prevents a tyranny of either the majority or the minority.



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11 Feb 2012, 7:03 pm

Longshanks wrote:
Having faithfully served my country in uniform, I think I'm entitled to an opinion or two.

1st Suggestion:

As George Washington wisely advocated that no poltical parties be formed, I advocate that we pass a consitutional amendment banning all political parties and caucases in this country because:

1) It cuts down on the partisan political BS!! !! :D

2) It cuts down the influence of special interests and lobbyists! :twisted:

3) You don't have one senator or respresentative from another state in a leadership position telling a senator or representative how to vote on a given item. :mrgreen:

2d Suggestion - Require all public office seekers to serve in the military because - if you make decisions that affect the very lives of those serving - then you should share the risk and the hardships! :salut:

-Longshanks


Such an amendment abridge the 9 th amendment which among other things recognizes the right of free voluntary association a unenumerated right protected by the 9 th amendment

If people want to form parties why should they be forbidden to form parties?

ruveyn



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11 Feb 2012, 7:09 pm

Declension wrote:
I have come to the conclusion that Americans hate their government because there are only two parties. You need reform of your system so that there can be more than two parties.


It's interesting to note that America is a hundred years or so behind the UK on this one. We did have two parties, long ago. Now we have three main ones, and the weakest of the three is not the newcomer. We also have a scattering of fringe parties that generally don't get anywhere. Perhaps the bigger problem is that the US doesn't have an even split of parties - what you'd consider the left and right are more like *centre* and right to the UK.

Though actually, the biggest problem in the American system is that the government only governs for about eighteen months of every four year term. The rest of the time is canvassing for re-election. Surely it would be better to actually do some governing and let the people decide whether you were any good at it?



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11 Feb 2012, 7:17 pm

^^ US politics (esp. elections) are hugely profitable to a lot of people. It is almost more of an entertainment industry at this point


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11 Feb 2012, 7:28 pm

Actually, we do have a multi-party system here. It's just that none of them are taken as seriously as the DNC and the GOP are.

Not that those two are taken seriously by everyone, either ...



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11 Feb 2012, 7:35 pm

Thom_Fuleri wrote:
Declension wrote:
I have come to the conclusion that Americans hate their government because there are only two parties. You need reform of your system so that there can be more than two parties.


It's interesting to note that America is a hundred years or so behind the UK on this one. We did have two parties, long ago. Now we have three main ones, and the weakest of the three is not the newcomer. We also have a scattering of fringe parties that generally don't get anywhere. Perhaps the bigger problem is that the US doesn't have an even split of parties - what you'd consider the left and right are more like *centre* and right to the UK.

Though actually, the biggest problem in the American system is that the government only governs for about eighteen months of every four year term. The rest of the time is canvassing for re-election. Surely it would be better to actually do some governing and let the people decide whether you were any good at it?


Like you said: Britian, like the USA, generally has two big parties (though now it has two big parties and one large small parties).And it has alot of little no consequence parties.

But continental European countries like France and the Netherlands have dozens and scores of political parties.

In the AngloAmerican system two(or sometimes three) big permanent edifices confront each other. But in europe, as I understand it, the political parties are like a bunch of little bricks strewn on the ground. On election year these little bricks jump up and form ad hoc big edices- that oonfront each other- to get the head of state elected as learders of coalition governments. And the bricks dont always join with the same other bricks each time- so you get differing big edifices each time. The small parties change alliances from time to time and form differing coalitions. The small parties are permanent and the big alliances that our equivalent to Republican and Democratic party are adhoc.

It has its appeal.