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The root of all evil - documentary

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Jono
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20 Apr 2012, 2:45 pm

ruveyn wrote:
When was the last time an Orthodox Jew strapped on a suicide bomb or hijacked a plane to crash into a tall building filled with unarmed folks?

ruveyn


When talking about suicide bombers in the introduction, I think he was referring to fundamentalist Muslims but I also think that, throughout the documentary, he was trying to argue that fundamentalism within three Abrahamic religions is bad.



ruveyn
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20 Apr 2012, 2:50 pm

Jono wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
When was the last time an Orthodox Jew strapped on a suicide bomb or hijacked a plane to crash into a tall building filled with unarmed folks?

ruveyn


When talking about suicide bombers in the introduction, I think he was referring to fundamentalist Muslims but I also think that, throughout the documentary, he was trying to argue that fundamentalism within three Abrahamic religions is bad.


Dawkins has committed the genertic or generic error. He assumes the flaw lies in the origins of the religion. In the thousands of years since Biblical times Judaism has modified itself several times. It has become a Rabbinic religion rather than a Biblical Religion and since the enlightenment in Europe Judaism has produced two or three variant movements which has introduced rational and scientific elements into the religion. Most American Jews for example with the exception of the ultra-orthodox have reconciled to the scientifically established version of the Cosmos. The same if true for most mainline non fundamentalist Christians. Islam has done the least of the Abrahamic religions to purge themselves of the irrational. Maybe the Muslims need another 1400 years to do that.

ruveyn



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20 Apr 2012, 4:38 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Jono wrote:

I have also watched an interview on Youtube between Dawkins and a moderate Irish priest named Alister McGrath, which was done for this documentary but was cut. I did not see Dawkins become chauvinistic in that interview.


AstroGeek is not talking about his conversation with McGrath, he's talking about the feud with Rebecca Watson.

http://www.salon.com/2011/07/08/atheist_flirting/

Correct. And my comment about him being unfair to liberal religious people is more fundamental than that. Dawkins has stated before that he wants to see religion ultimately destroyed. I disagree with that. If it happens then it happens and it doesn't bother me, but I refuse to pursue that goal as I believe in freedom of religion. I think that what atheists should strive for is protection of their own rights and that they should be friendly towards liberal currents in all of the various religions. For example, I'm quite happy to get along with the United Church of Canada.



Jono
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20 Apr 2012, 4:41 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Jono wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
When was the last time an Orthodox Jew strapped on a suicide bomb or hijacked a plane to crash into a tall building filled with unarmed folks?

ruveyn


When talking about suicide bombers in the introduction, I think he was referring to fundamentalist Muslims but I also think that, throughout the documentary, he was trying to argue that fundamentalism within three Abrahamic religions is bad.


Dawkins has committed the genertic or generic error. He assumes the flaw lies in the origins of the religion. In the thousands of years since Biblical times Judaism has modified itself several times. It has become a Rabbinic religion rather than a Biblical Religion and since the enlightenment in Europe Judaism has produced two or three variant movements which has introduced rational and scientific elements into the religion. Most American Jews for example with the exception of the ultra-orthodox have reconciled to the scientifically established version of the Cosmos. The same if true for most mainline non fundamentalist Christians. Islam has done the least of the Abrahamic religions to purge themselves of the irrational. Maybe the Muslims need another 1400 years to do that.

ruveyn


I mostly agree with you there. However, I think that Dawkins' argument goes further than just making an argument based on the origins of religion. If you look at the people who are fundamentalists, rather than the moderate religious people, actions like a fundamentalist Christian blowing an abortion clinic still seem to be motivated by religion/faith nonetheless and I think that's the base of his argument there.

Regarding non fundamentalist religious people, I've already mentioned his argument regarding that in a previous post, in reply to someone else. But I do agree that particular religions are not the same today as they were thousands of years ago and are more benign. Out of the three Abrahamic religions, Judaism has changed the most.



AspieRogue

20 Apr 2012, 5:08 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Jono wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
When was the last time an Orthodox Jew strapped on a suicide bomb or hijacked a plane to crash into a tall building filled with unarmed folks?

ruveyn


When talking about suicide bombers in the introduction, I think he was referring to fundamentalist Muslims but I also think that, throughout the documentary, he was trying to argue that fundamentalism within three Abrahamic religions is bad.


Dawkins has committed the genertic or generic error. He assumes the flaw lies in the origins of the religion. In the thousands of years since Biblical times Judaism has modified itself several times. It has become a Rabbinic religion rather than a Biblical Religion and since the enlightenment in Europe Judaism has produced two or three variant movements which has introduced rational and scientific elements into the religion. Most American Jews for example with the exception of the ultra-orthodox have reconciled to the scientifically established version of the Cosmos. The same if true for most mainline non fundamentalist Christians. Islam has done the least of the Abrahamic religions to purge themselves of the irrational. Maybe the Muslims need another 1400 years to do that.

ruveyn




Islam is extremely violent and sexist, but just exactly how is it any less rational than christianity?



AspieRogue

20 Apr 2012, 5:10 pm

ruveyn wrote:


When was the last time an Orthodox Jew strapped on a suicide bomb or hijacked a plane to crash into a tall building filled with unarmed folks?

ruveyn



Orthodox Jews have their own state with a powerful military at their disposal. They have no need to resort to hijackings and suicide bombings. Instead they use their own warplanes to bomb their enemies.....Or then again there are settlers like Baruch Goldstein who shoot at unarmed palestinians with government supplied Uzi's.



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20 Apr 2012, 5:18 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
ruveyn wrote:


When was the last time an Orthodox Jew strapped on a suicide bomb or hijacked a plane to crash into a tall building filled with unarmed folks?

ruveyn



Orthodox Jews have their own state with a powerful military at their disposal. They have no need to resort to hijackings and suicide bombings. Instead they use their own warplanes to bomb their enemies.....Or then again there are settlers like Baruch Goldstein who shoot at unarmed palestinians with government supplied Uzi's.


Paid for by American foregin aid money.

Israel is lucky that the US considers them a big asset.


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ruveyn
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20 Apr 2012, 5:57 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
ruveyn wrote:


When was the last time an Orthodox Jew strapped on a suicide bomb or hijacked a plane to crash into a tall building filled with unarmed folks?

ruveyn



Orthodox Jews have their own state with a powerful military at their disposal. They have no need to resort to hijackings and suicide bombings. Instead they use their own warplanes to bomb their enemies.....Or then again there are settlers like Baruch Goldstein who shoot at unarmed palestinians with government supplied Uzi's.


That is false. Most Israelis are not very observant Jews. The Orthodox party is a splinter minority.

Midinoth Yisroel (The State of Israel) is constituted as a secular state.

ruveyn



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20 Apr 2012, 5:58 pm

Jono wrote:
Joker wrote:
My view on the root of all Evil is not a religious one my view is this the root of all Evil to me is free will and human nature is the root of all evil but then again evil comes in many diffrent forms.


I was referring to the documentary. Have you watched the videos?


Um no I will not watch something that insults my faith or any faith for that matter.



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20 Apr 2012, 9:04 pm

Joker wrote:
Jono wrote:
Joker wrote:
My view on the root of all Evil is not a religious one my view is this the root of all Evil to me is free will and human nature is the root of all evil but then again evil comes in many diffrent forms.


I was referring to the documentary. Have you watched the videos?


Um no I will not watch something that insults my faith or any faith for that matter.


*sigh* "I assume that I'm going to be offended, so I will not watch it". I am not deliberately out to offend people, I just wanted to see how people would counter the arguments. Now, I admit that some people might be offended but it's actually difficult to have a discussion like this about faith and religion without some religious people getting offended. If you think that you can handle it, then go ahead but if not then don't. I am not out to get you.



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20 Apr 2012, 10:38 pm

Jono wrote:
Joker wrote:
Jono wrote:
Joker wrote:
My view on the root of all Evil is not a religious one my view is this the root of all Evil to me is free will and human nature is the root of all evil but then again evil comes in many diffrent forms.


I was referring to the documentary. Have you watched the videos?


Um no I will not watch something that insults my faith or any faith for that matter.


*sigh* "I assume that I'm going to be offended, so I will not watch it". I am not deliberately out to offend people, I just wanted to see how people would counter the arguments. Now, I admit that some people might be offended but it's actually difficult to have a discussion like this about faith and religion without some religious people getting offended. If you think that you can handle it, then go ahead but if not then don't. I am not out to get you.


Hmm I can understand what the documentery is saying I understand their arugments. I have seen it befor but the root of all evil is hard to place in any cateagory anything can be evil. When religion becomes corrupt and plays a role in politics it becomes evil when non theists want to take the liberty away from theists it can be viewed as evil.

How ever though I am a theist I am a fan of Friedrich Nietzsche he has way better ideas then Dawkins that do not offend me as much nor did he say that people who believe in God are delsuisonal.



Jono
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21 Apr 2012, 7:01 am

Joker wrote:
Jono wrote:
Joker wrote:
Jono wrote:
Joker wrote:
My view on the root of all Evil is not a religious one my view is this the root of all Evil to me is free will and human nature is the root of all evil but then again evil comes in many diffrent forms.


I was referring to the documentary. Have you watched the videos?


Um no I will not watch something that insults my faith or any faith for that matter.


*sigh* "I assume that I'm going to be offended, so I will not watch it". I am not deliberately out to offend people, I just wanted to see how people would counter the arguments. Now, I admit that some people might be offended but it's actually difficult to have a discussion like this about faith and religion without some religious people getting offended. If you think that you can handle it, then go ahead but if not then don't. I am not out to get you.


Hmm I can understand what the documentery is saying I understand their arugments. I have seen it befor but the root of all evil is hard to place in any cateagory anything can be evil. When religion becomes corrupt and plays a role in politics it becomes evil when non theists want to take the liberty away from theists it can be viewed as evil.

How ever though I am a theist I am a fan of Friedrich Nietzsche he has way better ideas then Dawkins that do not offend me as much nor did he say that people who believe in God are delsuisonal.


I think Richard Dawkins actually objected to "The Root of all Evil", so I don't that he is saying that religion is the root of evil. I get what you're saying though. In Dawkins' interview with Alister McGrath, McGrath gave the opinion that the issue was about ideology rather than religion and gave the example of Joseph Stalin who was an atheist. Dawkins has said however, that a suicide bomber might be primarily motivated by religion, whereas Stalin was motivated by the ideology of Marxism rather than by atheism.



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21 Apr 2012, 10:50 am

Jono wrote:
I think Richard Dawkins actually objected to "The Root of all Evil", so I don't that he is saying that religion is the root of evil. I get what you're saying though. In Dawkins' interview with Alister McGrath, McGrath gave the opinion that the issue was about ideology rather than religion and gave the example of Joseph Stalin who was an atheist. Dawkins has said however, that a suicide bomber might be primarily motivated by religion, whereas Stalin was motivated by the ideology of Marxism rather than by atheism.

But that supports McGrath's point. Ideologies, be they religious, political, or otherwise, can cause people to commit horrible atrocities. Also, I suspect that Stalin did what he did because he was a power-hungry egomaniac. From my knowledge there is little evidence that he truly believed in Marxism.



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21 Apr 2012, 1:09 pm

I think what Dawkins is trying to do in these documentaries is draw our attention to the difference between faith based decisions and decisions based on fact. He was quite right to do this at the time of the bombings and 911 because people are being killed due to the faith of some other people.



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21 Apr 2012, 1:31 pm

AspieRogue wrote:



Islam is extremely violent and sexist, but just exactly how is it any less rational than christianity?


Neither Christianity nor Islam is based on fact AND reason. The big difference nowadays is the Christians generally do not spread their nonsense by acts of violence. An abortion clinic bombing occurs every five years or so. An abortion doctor is killed ever five or ten years or so. Islamic martyrdom, murder, violence and destruction is a DAILY occurrence. The new call to prayer for the faithful is the explosion of the IED or suicide bomb.

Mainline Christianity has large detoxified its practice (compared to the days of the Inquisition and the Crusades). Islam has not yet done so.

ruveyn



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21 Apr 2012, 2:02 pm

ruveyn wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:



Islam is extremely violent and sexist, but just exactly how is it any less rational than christianity?


Mainline Christianity has large detoxified its practice (compared to the days of the Inquisition and the Crusades). Islam has not yet done so.

ruveyn


I do believe Ruveyn is right again and I admire him deeply he is very wise I respect everthing he posts.