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The Enemies of Reason

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Jono
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30 Apr 2012, 8:06 am

Lots of people to reply to.

Grebels wrote:
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The New Age stuff actually has its roots in the mid 19th century with the advent of spiritualism etc.


I know about the knock knock who's there times of early spiritualism, but how about the Oracle at Delphi and things in much more ancient times.


Oracles, such as the Oracle at Delphi were really part of the Ancient Greek religion. Religions have always involved a belief in the supernatural but what I was referring to was the beginnings of what we now call the New Age Movement.

thedaywalker wrote:
i don't think anyone that can't even explain the effects of a simple mushroom should be as arrogant as he is


You think Richard Dawkins is arrogant? Contrary to being arrogant, skeptics are usually the first people to admit they don't know when confronted with something they can't explain.

Robdemanc wrote:
I think anti depressants are over prescribed and aggessively sold to health professionals by drug companies. And I think the way they work has a strong correlation with the drug MDMA (Ecstasy), it is curious that all modern antidepressants came about after the 1950's when MDMA was first synthesised.

Also there is no proof that depression is caused by a lack of chemicals in the brain, and furthermore the anti depressants do not even increase the chemicals in the brain, they just make them longer acting. I think it is an industry that is chasing big profits rather than helping people.


I would agree that anti-depressents over-prescribed. One must actually be careful when prescribing anti-depressants, for example Prozac has been known to cause people to commit suicide. It may seem paradoxical that a drug designed to reduce the symptoms of depression can actually cause people to commit suicide but it does make sense if considers that people with clinical depression might of been having thoughts of suicide for a long time but just lacked the motivation for going through with it. Drugs like Prozac can initially improve symptoms like lack of motivation before the overall mood improves and that's what causes the problem.

Joker wrote:
Richard Dawkins said that Religion is a scientific theory that actually is the less hateful thing he has said about people of faith.


I think this series is more about superstition and alternative medicine than about religion or people of faith.

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
When Dawkins indicates that people should be skeptical that's wonderful - he has to just be aware that it doesn't end with him either.


He does say to look at the evidence. I'm not sure how anyone who's seen the evidence for evolution would not conclude that evolution is the right explanation for the diversity and complexity of life.



Robdemanc
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30 Apr 2012, 8:24 am

Jono wrote:

Robdemanc wrote:
I think anti depressants are over prescribed and aggessively sold to health professionals by drug companies. And I think the way they work has a strong correlation with the drug MDMA (Ecstasy), it is curious that all modern antidepressants came about after the 1950's when MDMA was first synthesised.

Also there is no proof that depression is caused by a lack of chemicals in the brain, and furthermore the anti depressants do not even increase the chemicals in the brain, they just make them longer acting. I think it is an industry that is chasing big profits rather than helping people.


I would agree that anti-depressents over-prescribed. One must actually be careful when prescribing anti-depressants, for example Prozac has been known to cause people to commit suicide. It may seem paradoxical that a drug designed to reduce the symptoms of depression can actually cause people to commit suicide but it does make sense if considers that people with clinical depression might of been having thoughts of suicide for a long time but just lacked the motivation for going through with it. Drugs like Prozac can initially improve symptoms like lack of motivation before the overall mood improves and that's what causes the problem.


Yes. Antidepressents seem to stimulate motivation, so if the mood is low then taking them may motivate the person to act out their suicidal thoughts. I think its clear the medical profession are dabbling in a grey area.



Grebels
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30 Apr 2012, 8:29 am

What could be more depressing than the side effects of those little blue pills.



thedaywalker
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01 May 2012, 4:00 am

well i do find it quite arrogant to be so sure you have a monopoly on the truth that you actualy start calling up people to become militant atheists.



Rocky
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01 May 2012, 4:11 am

thedaywalker wrote:
well i do find it quite arrogant to be so sure you have a monopoly on the truth that you actualy start calling up people to become militant atheists.


Who is calling people up to become militant atheists? I am not sure I understand you.



thedaywalker
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01 May 2012, 4:19 am

richard dawkins

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxGMqKCcN6A[/youtube]



Rocky
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01 May 2012, 4:56 am

thedaywalker wrote:
richard dawkins

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxGMqKCcN6A[/youtube]


As I see it, Professor Dawkins is less arrogant about his view of reality than theists. He is open to new evidence which might disprove his view. In his book, "The God Delusion," he writes that he is an agnostic atheist. He does not believe in any gods, but as a scientist, he is open to being proven wrong. Theists are not, since they believe as they do through faith, which can not be disproved through evidence.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6tMKdpmijQ[/youtube]

Skip ahead to about 5'45" for the relevant part at 5 minutes 50 seconds. The rest of this talk can be found on YouTube. It lasts about 30 minutes. It is well worth finding. I must get some sleep, so I will leave that to you.



heavenlyabyss
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01 May 2012, 7:11 am

There is a person and there is anther person. One person has one perception, the other person has another. One person can not get inside the other and change their internal processing system. What is so good about reason, may I ask? Why is it so important?



thedaywalker
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01 May 2012, 8:36 am

i do not enter this thread as a advocate of any religion just as a advocate of the idea of god that i have never grasped as it was written but was brought to me trough the natural substances residing in the living things of this planet.



Rocky
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02 May 2012, 2:08 am

heavenlyabyss wrote:
There is a person and there is anther person. One person has one perception, the other person has another. One person can not get inside the other and change their internal processing system. What is so good about reason, may I ask? Why is it so important?


Reason is the most effective way of interacting with reality to achieve your goals. It is the only way to avoid making bad decisions based on wishful thinking. If you pray and something happens that you wanted, you might then conclude that reality is affected by prayer. You might then pray instead of working to achieve the objective on the next occasion that you want to accomplish something. Cause and effect can be dismissed and rationalization can then take over, to some extent.



thedaywalker
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02 May 2012, 2:58 am

well i don't think the world is about achieving goals but about having fun and it's easyer to have fun when you irrational.



Agemaki
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02 May 2012, 3:01 am

I admit I have a long-standing crush on Richard Dawkins. Such a charming and polite old man. :)



Jono
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02 May 2012, 8:45 am

heavenlyabyss wrote:
There is a person and there is anther person. One person has one perception, the other person has another. One person can not get inside the other and change their internal processing system. What is so good about reason, may I ask? Why is it so important?


Reason is what built modern civilization. All of modern technology is due to science. There is no way to justify knowledge without reason and evidence, so I think that anything we claim as truth must have an empirical basis.



Last edited by Jono on 02 May 2012, 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jono
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02 May 2012, 8:47 am

thedaywalker wrote:
well i don't think the world is about achieving goals but about having fun and it's easyer to have fun when you irrational.


Things can look designed without being designed. There are many examples in nature where designs are flawed or imperfect, which would be explained much better if it were evolved rather than designed.



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02 May 2012, 9:36 am

Richard Dawkins' is not at all superficially charming, and his level-headed views on religion show tolerance. If the world had more moderately minded people, such as him, we would surely be living in paradise. :wink:


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Jono
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02 May 2012, 5:51 pm

Orr wrote:
Richard Dawkins' is not at all superficially charming, and his level-headed views on religion show tolerance. If the world had more moderately minded people, such as him, we would surely be living in paradise. :wink:


Maybe, I wouldn't go so far as to say we would be living in paradise. Although, the world would probably be a much better place.