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For those of you who support Zionism and Israel and a Two St

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snapcap
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04 Jun 2012, 12:38 pm

ruveyn wrote:
snapcap wrote:

Would the 51st state have done it without western money and support?



Israel is a sovereign State and has won its wars without a drop of U.S. blood being shed.

The financial help has been important by not crucial to Israel's survival. Israel survives because it is the strongest armed state in the region.

ruveyn


They sure propped themselves up pretty quickly. And I'm sure they knew the problems they were about to cause. And I'm sure it was planned for. Looking at the region now, I don't see how anyone could think differently.

I like how steps were taking so it wasn't as noticeable what the plan was in the past, but it's more clear now.


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Joker
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04 Jun 2012, 12:38 pm

They still have this right and the jews do not do that.



snapcap
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04 Jun 2012, 12:43 pm

Joker wrote:
They still have this right and the jews do not do that.


You need to work on the readability of your posts.


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Joker
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04 Jun 2012, 12:45 pm

snapcap wrote:
Joker wrote:
They still have this right and the jews do not do that.


You need to work on the readability of your posts.


I am still learing how to use punctuation and grammar wana teach me?



snapcap
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04 Jun 2012, 12:48 pm

Joker wrote:
snapcap wrote:
Joker wrote:
They still have this right and the jews do not do that.


You need to work on the readability of your posts.


I am still learing how to use punctuation and grammar wana teach me?


I would, but my female tenants keep me pretty busy.


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Joker
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04 Jun 2012, 12:49 pm

snapcap wrote:
Joker wrote:
snapcap wrote:
Joker wrote:
They still have this right and the jews do not do that.


You need to work on the readability of your posts.


I am still learing how to use punctuation and grammar wana teach me?


I would, but my female tenants keep me pretty busy.


Awwww :cry:



snapcap
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04 Jun 2012, 12:53 pm

Joker wrote:
snapcap wrote:
Joker wrote:
snapcap wrote:
Joker wrote:
They still have this right and the jews do not do that.


You need to work on the readability of your posts.


I am still learing how to use punctuation and grammar wana teach me?


I would, but my female tenants keep me pretty busy.


Awwww :cry:


Amazon


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visagrunt
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04 Jun 2012, 1:25 pm

How far back should these grievances go?

You suggest "pre-1947" borders for Palestine. But there was no Palestine then, there was British administration over part of the territory of the defunct Ottoman Empire. So perhaps the pre-1918 borders? There was no Palestine, then, either. There was the Ottoman empire. The last domestic rule over the territory between the Jordan/Dead Sea and the Mediterranean was the Hasmonean Kingdom of Judea before the Romans rolled in and appointed Herod the Great in 37 BCE. For the next 1985 years, the territory was continually ruled by foreign overlords, be they Roman, Byzantine, Caliphate, European, Ottoman or British.

So while there is certainly a very real claim on the part of Palestinian people to have been displaced, it is substantially no different than the expulsion of Jews from the very same territory in 135 CE.

The solution to the conflict lies not in restoration to some arbitrary point in history, but rather to a mutual division of the land that provides for sustainable states for both Israelis and Palestinians.

You might be passionate, mikecartwright, but your notions are foolish and impractical. I have the intellectual capacity to be entirely pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian. I don't accept the unvarnished positions of one or the other, but rather see the way forward as a compromise between the two. If you can't see that, then there is not much point in seeking out the views of others.


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Joker
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04 Jun 2012, 1:54 pm

visagrunt wrote:
How far back should these grievances go?

You suggest "pre-1947" borders for Palestine. But there was no Palestine then, there was British administration over part of the territory of the defunct Ottoman Empire. So perhaps the pre-1918 borders? There was no Palestine, then, either. There was the Ottoman empire. The last domestic rule over the territory between the Jordan/Dead Sea and the Mediterranean was the Hasmonean Kingdom of Judea before the Romans rolled in and appointed Herod the Great in 37 BCE. For the next 1985 years, the territory was continually ruled by foreign overlords, be they Roman, Byzantine, Caliphate, European, Ottoman or British.

So while there is certainly a very real claim on the part of Palestinian people to have been displaced, it is substantially no different than the expulsion of Jews from the very same territory in 135 CE.

The solution to the conflict lies not in restoration to some arbitrary point in history, but rather to a mutual division of the land that provides for sustainable states for both Israelis and Palestinians.

You might be passionate, mikecartwright, but your notions are foolish and impractical. I have the intellectual capacity to be entirely pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian. I don't accept the unvarnished positions of one or the other, but rather see the way forward as a compromise between the two. If you can't see that, then there is not much point in seeking out the views of others.


We don't agree on a lot of things but I agree with everything you said.



visagrunt
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04 Jun 2012, 3:47 pm

And even where we disagree, joker, I do not think that we are so polarized that we cannot see some form of middle ground.


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04 Jun 2012, 8:57 pm

Aelfwine wrote:
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VMSmith wrote:
the thing about the one state solution(which i support) is that it doesnt mean that the occupants of israel should be expelled. i think all land should be given back to the palestinians and there should be one secular state. this would result in an end to the apartheid system, the fact that there would be no israeli state that defines itself as a "jewish state" means that all religions could live together in the same area instead of one state being classed for one religion only. thats why zionism is racist-its the idea of one state for one religion which must separate itself from the rest of the world and for it to maintain itself as a jewish state it must have a majority of jews so everyone else is ousted or delegated second class in society. thats why i think the two state solution fails- it is soft zionism. first off a two state system is what israel started as and what it is now and thats not going so great. also two state means you still support one state for jews and one for palestinians which is still aparthied and still means israel is gonna have to do all it can to keep its state religiously pure. plus there is still the matter of the land belonging to the palestinians anyway. they shouldnt "let" them have it or "give" it back- it is theirs. it is difficult to be neutral.


Yes two states would also cause a seperation between palestineans and jews. But could you imagine a nation which consists of two totally opposing groups.
A secular state could only work with tolerant and moderate persons.
I think first the palestineans should become more self-government and a better economy. If the standard of living is okay, then you can start with reconciliation. It takes a long time to reduce the hatred.

i think it could work. before israel started forming jews, muslims, christians lived side by side and i think it could be like that again. i think that taking away the israeli state would also remove other divisions- antisemitism i mean. israel keeps marketing its actions when it oppresses palestinians as jewish and the impact of that has been a rise in antisemitism. if israel were gone it would be a step forward(not the last step that needs to be taken but the first) in removing a barrier to the ability of jews and arabs to get along. i think it would be hard for palestine to develop as a state. it doesnt just have to deal with defending itself against israel, it has to contend with the rest of the world, both arab and otherwise who either shun it, deny it has a right to exist, persecute its refugees, supply israel with weapons to assist in its land grab, denounce those struggling for liberation as terrorists, etc also israel tends to grab land and resources that could be of any economic use- even in places outside its borders. or it just destroys them intentionally so palestinians cant make use of them or return to their land.



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04 Jun 2012, 9:41 pm

And this is why you're not supposed to try and take credit for what your ancestors did, or gain sympathy for what someone else's ancestors did to your ancestors.

Give it a few more decades for all the people from 1947 to die off and they'll eventually forget all about it.



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04 Jun 2012, 10:46 pm

*French shrug*

It's all irrelevant. Eventually Israel will get wiped out.


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04 Jun 2012, 10:58 pm

Rainy wrote:
And this is why you're not supposed to try and take credit for what your ancestors did, or gain sympathy for what someone else's ancestors did to your ancestors.

Give it a few more decades for all the people from 1947 to die off and they'll eventually forget all about it.

for as long as israel exists it cannot be forgotten about. israels crimes continue, it isnt just a matter of what happened generations ago. what happened in 1947 still happens today.



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04 Jun 2012, 11:25 pm

VMSmith wrote:
Rainy wrote:
And this is why you're not supposed to try and take credit for what your ancestors did, or gain sympathy for what someone else's ancestors did to your ancestors.

Give it a few more decades for all the people from 1947 to die off and they'll eventually forget all about it.

for as long as israel exists it cannot be forgotten about. israels crimes continue, it isnt just a matter of what happened generations ago. what happened in 1947 still happens today.


Those terrorists only exist because of Israel's mercy and attempts at peace. Who do you think keeps funding them?

Once Israel, and the rest of the world, finally runs out of patience, this entire issue will become just another blip in history.



ruveyn
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05 Jun 2012, 3:30 am

Rainy wrote:
VMSmith wrote:
Rainy wrote:
And this is why you're not supposed to try and take credit for what your ancestors did, or gain sympathy for what someone else's ancestors did to your ancestors.

Give it a few more decades for all the people from 1947 to die off and they'll eventually forget all about it.

for as long as israel exists it cannot be forgotten about. israels crimes continue, it isnt just a matter of what happened generations ago. what happened in 1947 still happens today.


Those terrorists only exist because of Israel's mercy and attempts at peace. Who do you think keeps funding them?

Once Israel, and the rest of the world, finally runs out of patience, this entire issue will become just another blip in history.


Terrorism (of the Muslim variety) has existed for over 1100 years. Look up the history of the assassin order (Hashishim order). It was a Muslim enterprise started in Persia during the common era 11th century.

ruveyn