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John Brown: Hero, or Villain?

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John Brown was a:
Hero! 67%  67%  [ 8 ]
Villain! 17%  17%  [ 2 ]
I don't know, just show the results. 17%  17%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 12

Joker
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09 Jun 2012, 10:23 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Joker wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Joker wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
John Brown's actions started a war that killed 620,000 Americans and maimed 1.5 million Americans in a country with a population of about 30 million. The fear of servile revolt made the Southerners insane.

ruveyn


Not North Carolina we didn't have that many slaves.


In 1860, only one-third of North Carolinians were slaves.

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/slavery/sl ... census.htm

In Mississippi and South Carolina, the majority of the people were slaves.


As a southerner I already knew that.


What is the official Southern explanation for the relative decline (i.e., as a percentage of the total population) of the African American population since then in those states?


Decline in what population? Their are a lot of Afraican Americans that call the South their home.



ArrantPariah
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09 Jun 2012, 10:23 pm

So, how does John Brown compare to Che Guevara, on the Hero/Villain spectrum?



ArrantPariah
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09 Jun 2012, 10:24 pm

Joker wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Joker wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Joker wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
John Brown's actions started a war that killed 620,000 Americans and maimed 1.5 million Americans in a country with a population of about 30 million. The fear of servile revolt made the Southerners insane.

ruveyn


Not North Carolina we didn't have that many slaves.


In 1860, only one-third of North Carolinians were slaves.

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/slavery/sl ... census.htm

In Mississippi and South Carolina, the majority of the people were slaves.


As a southerner I already knew that.


What is the official Southern explanation for the relative decline (i.e., as a percentage of the total population) of the African American population since then in those states?


Decline in what population? Their are a lot of Afraican Americans that call the South their home.


Percentage-wise. There are no longer any states that house a Black-majority population.



naturalplastic
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09 Jun 2012, 10:25 pm

Joker wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Joker wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
John Brown's actions started a war that killed 620,000 Americans and maimed 1.5 million Americans in a country with a population of about 30 million. The fear of servile revolt made the Southerners insane.

ruveyn


Not North Carolina we didn't have that many slaves.


Neither here no their. The claim of the right to own humans as slaves was the basis of the secession. The Southerners were afraid of servile revolt and beefed up their militias. That is what made them so hard to beat once the Civil War erupted.

John Brown was carrying a lit match in a room full of gun powder.

ruveyn


We would have won if we used slaves in the army and let them figtht for their freedom.


So the south should have recruited blacks into the rebel army by rewarding each black recruit with freedom. In that way they couldve beefed up their army to defend seccession. The whole purpose of seccession being to keep blacks in slavery. So the south shouldve freed the blacks from slavery in order to keep the blacks in slavery. Have I got the ghist of it?

That strikes me as illogical to put it mildly.



Last edited by naturalplastic on 09 Jun 2012, 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Joker
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09 Jun 2012, 10:27 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Joker wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Joker wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
John Brown's actions started a war that killed 620,000 Americans and maimed 1.5 million Americans in a country with a population of about 30 million. The fear of servile revolt made the Southerners insane.

ruveyn


Not North Carolina we didn't have that many slaves.


Neither here no their. The claim of the right to own humans as slaves was the basis of the secession. The Southerners were afraid of servile revolt and beefed up their militias. That is what made them so hard to beat once the Civil War erupted.

John Brown was carrying a lit match in a room full of gun powder.

ruveyn


We would have won if we used slaves in the army and let them figtht for their freedom.


So the south should have recruited blacks into the rebel army by rewarding each black recruit with freedom. In that way they couldve beefed up their army to defend seccession. The whole purpose of seccession being to keep blacks in slavery. So the south shouldve freed the blacks from slavery in order to keep the blacks in slavery. Have I got the ghist of it?

That strikes me as illogical to put it mildly.


Paul Mooney was the one that said we should have used the slaves and the war was fought over other issues besides slavery.



Joker
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09 Jun 2012, 10:27 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Joker wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Joker wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Joker wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
John Brown's actions started a war that killed 620,000 Americans and maimed 1.5 million Americans in a country with a population of about 30 million. The fear of servile revolt made the Southerners insane.

ruveyn


Not North Carolina we didn't have that many slaves.


In 1860, only one-third of North Carolinians were slaves.

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/slavery/sl ... census.htm

In Mississippi and South Carolina, the majority of the people were slaves.


As a southerner I already knew that.


What is the official Southern explanation for the relative decline (i.e., as a percentage of the total population) of the African American population since then in those states?


Decline in what population? Their are a lot of Afraican Americans that call the South their home.


Percentage-wise. There are no longer any states that house a Black-majority population.


Their are more blacks in New Orleans then whites.



naturalplastic
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09 Jun 2012, 11:12 pm

Joker wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Joker wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Joker wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Joker wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
John Brown's actions started a war that killed 620,000 Americans and maimed 1.5 million Americans in a country with a population of about 30 million. The fear of servile revolt made the Southerners insane.

ruveyn


Not North Carolina we didn't have that many slaves.


In 1860, only one-third of North Carolinians were slaves.

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/slavery/sl ... census.htm

In Mississippi and South Carolina, the majority of the people were slaves.


As a southerner I already knew that.


What is the official Southern explanation for the relative decline (i.e., as a percentage of the total population) of the African American population since then in those states?


Decline in what population? Their are a lot of Afraican Americans that call the South their home.


Percentage-wise. There are no longer any states that house a Black-majority population.


Their are more blacks in New Orleans then whites.


what is the thought process of someone who considers the fact that "only" one in three people in their homestate were slaves to be something to boast about? Is your brain fully engaged when you put your mouth into gear?

On top of that if you take a look at that 1860 census you will see that most of the states that had alaves had fewer slaves in absolute number than did north carolina. So by absolute number they were one of the worst states.
About relative numbers:if you do the math and try to figure the comparison by numbers of slaves relative to the whole states population then some states had more, some had less, and two (virginia and texas) had roughly the same. So by proportion NCA doesnt stand out one way nor the other, and by absolute number its pretty bad. So if I were you I would stop repeating that "north carolina" had fewer slaves" mantra.



Joker
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09 Jun 2012, 11:14 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Joker wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Joker wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Joker wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Joker wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
John Brown's actions started a war that killed 620,000 Americans and maimed 1.5 million Americans in a country with a population of about 30 million. The fear of servile revolt made the Southerners insane.

ruveyn


Not North Carolina we didn't have that many slaves.


In 1860, only one-third of North Carolinians were slaves.

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/slavery/sl ... census.htm

In Mississippi and South Carolina, the majority of the people were slaves.


As a southerner I already knew that.


What is the official Southern explanation for the relative decline (i.e., as a percentage of the total population) of the African American population since then in those states?


Decline in what population? Their are a lot of Afraican Americans that call the South their home.


Percentage-wise. There are no longer any states that house a Black-majority population.


Their are more blacks in New Orleans then whites.


what is the thought process of someone who considers the fact that "only" one in three people in their homestate were slaves to be something to boast about? Is your brain fully engaged when you put your mouth into gear?

On top of that if you take a look at that 1860 census you will see that most of the states that had alaves had fewer slaves in absolute number than did north carolina. So by absolute number they were one of the worst states.
About relative numbers:if you do the math and try to figure the comparison by numbers of slaves relative to the whole states population then some states had more, some had less, and two (virginia and texas) had roughly the same. So by proportion NCA doesnt stand out one way nor the other, and by absolute number its pretty bad. So if I were you I would stop repeating that "north carolina" had fewer slaves" mantra.


Yawn your boring me.



Joker
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09 Jun 2012, 11:17 pm

Plus your talking about past things I live in the present



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10 Jun 2012, 7:50 am

Joker wrote:
Paul Mooney was the one that said we should have used the slaves and the war was fought over other issues besides slavery.

He's right on both counts. There were a few Confederate units that were formed for combat rather than just labor, but neither side used them extensively.


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ArrantPariah
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10 Jun 2012, 8:11 am

John_Browning wrote:
Joker wrote:
Paul Mooney was the one that said we should have used the slaves and the war was fought over other issues besides slavery.

He's right on both counts. There were a few Confederate units that were formed for combat rather than just labor, but neither side used them extensively.


Ten percent of the Union army was Black.

http://www.archives.gov/education/lesso ... civil-war/



ruveyn
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10 Jun 2012, 8:14 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
Joker wrote:
Paul Mooney was the one that said we should have used the slaves and the war was fought over other issues besides slavery.

He's right on both counts. There were a few Confederate units that were formed for combat rather than just labor, but neither side used them extensively.


Ten percent of the Union army was Black.

http://www.archives.gov/education/lesso ... civil-war/


The Massachussetts 54 th a black regiment distinguished itself in its attack on Battery Wagner.

Many of the black soldiers in the Union Army were escaped slaves. Payback time.

The Union black soldiers were the Confederates worst nightmare. Black men with loaded rifles.

ruveyn



Joker
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11 Jun 2012, 6:09 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
Joker wrote:
Paul Mooney was the one that said we should have used the slaves and the war was fought over other issues besides slavery.

He's right on both counts. There were a few Confederate units that were formed for combat rather than just labor, but neither side used them extensively.


Ten percent of the Union army was Black.

http://www.archives.gov/education/lesso ... civil-war/


Tell me something I didn't already know :lol:



naturalplastic
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11 Jun 2012, 9:13 pm

Joker wrote:
Plus your talking about past things I live in the present


you're the one who brought up the past.

Not me.



Joker
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11 Jun 2012, 9:14 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Joker wrote:
Plus your talking about past things I live in the present


you're the one who brought up the past.

Not me.


I didn't bring up the past I didn't start this thread.



naturalplastic
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11 Jun 2012, 9:31 pm

John_Browning wrote:
Joker wrote:
Paul Mooney was the one that said we should have used the slaves and the war was fought over other issues besides slavery.

He's right on both counts. There were a few Confederate units that were formed for combat rather than just labor, but neither side used them extensively.


Niether side used black troops 'extensively"?

36 thousand Black solders died for the Union cause.
Thats pretty extensive.

That happens to be 10 percent of the deaths on the union side.