Are humans the most intelligent life in the universe?

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Are humans the most intelligent life in the universe?
Probably Yes 19%  19%  [ 10 ]
Probably No 81%  81%  [ 43 ]
Total votes : 53

ruveyn
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21 Aug 2012, 9:40 am

wogaboo wrote:

If in fact life only appeared once on a planet as life friendly as Earth, it suggests life is something incredibly rare in the universe.


We have no idea of how many "life friendly" planets there are. We have spotted to this day a little over a thousand exo-planets. There are likely to be many, many more. Our technology now is so crude we cannot spot the "life friendly" planets so we have no idea of how rare life, or even intelligent life is in the cosmos. We are currently in the ignorant but finding out more stage.

ruveyn



Last edited by ruveyn on 21 Aug 2012, 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

Vexcalibur
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21 Aug 2012, 10:17 am

Probably and hopefully not.

Think of the largest number you can think. Raise that number to square power. The result is still less than the number of stars in the universe. There is plenty of space out there for civilizations smarter than ours. And no real reason at all to believe that the process that started life in here is unique to this planet.

(We have not found any evidence of contact. UFOs tend to be the product of imagination of people or ignorance about natural phenomena. But just because we have not contacted anyone yet, it does not change that there is a lot of space out there and no reason to believe life is exclusive to this planet.)


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21 Aug 2012, 11:33 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
Probably and hopefully not.

Think of the largest number you can think. Raise that number to square power. The result is still less than the number of stars in the universe. There is plenty of space out there for civilizations smarter than ours. And no real reason at all to believe that the process that started life in here is unique to this planet.

(We have not found any evidence of contact. UFOs tend to be the product of imagination of people or ignorance about natural phenomena. But just because we have not contacted anyone yet, it does not change that there is a lot of space out there and no reason to believe life is exclusive to this planet.)


There is also no reason why life has to be water + organic chemical based.


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visagrunt
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21 Aug 2012, 12:48 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
There is also no reason why life has to be water + organic chemical based.


Well, again we are dealing with the distinction between possibilities and probabilities. I would agree that non-carbon based biochemistries are possible--but I cannot readily conceive of an environment in which the would naturally occur. That doesn't make them impossible, but vastly less likely that carbon-based.

First of all, let's consider that "life" is a stable system of chemical reactions that extract energy from the environment, and use that energy to create more complex chemical structures which are capable of replication. If we are dealing with non-chemical life or anit-matter life, then we really have no basis on which to speculate. We probably wouldn't be able to recognize each other as "life" in any event.

Within that framework (baryonic matter based, chemical life), the first issue is that of elemental abundance. About 98% of the universe's mass is Hydrogen and Helium. Helium is largely non-reactive, so it doesn't contribute much to the party. Next on the abundance list are oxygen (1%), carbon (0.5%), neon, iron and nitrogen (0.1%), silicon, magnesium and sulfur (0.05%). All the rest of the elements combined are less abundant than nitrogen. So, if you are going to have a non-carbon based biochemistry, you have to have it in an environment in which all of the elements that you require are present in sufficient abundance.

Now the next problem is efficiency. The carbon-carbon bond is incredibly effective at creating biochemical compounds because it is short, strong, it allow for rotation, and can create aromatic rings (ring formations where the atoms share electrons). The carbon-hydrogen bond is even shorter, stronger and thus can release considerable energy when it is broken. Structurally, silicon should be able to do many of the things that carbon does--but it suffers from two great faults. First, silicon is bigger than carbon, which means that all of its bonds are weaker, and it has difficulty forming the double bonds that lie at the root of many organic molecules. Second, it lacks the reactivity with the wide range of other atoms that form part of organic chemistry. A silicon based biochemistry would have to replace this vast diversity of structures, but silicon simply doesn't behave in this way. Silane (SiH4) is the cognate molecule to methane (CH4), while carbon and hydrogen have comparable electronegativity, making methane bonds generally non-polar, the bonds in Silane are polarized, creating a different physical chemistry. Silicon does not create flat rings like carbon, it creates chair shaped rings, which are only weakly aromatic. At the end of the day, hydrocarbons are vastly more efficient than hydrosilanes, and in the presence of carbon, hydrocarbons will proliferate in preference to hydrosilanes.

Now, of course, silicon is not the only basis for alternative biochemistries, to be sure. Boron is a very interesting atom from the perspective of creating complex compounds. But boron is incredibly rare because it is not a product of stellar fusion, and can only be created through the gamma ray bombardment of heavier elements. Sulfur can chain as carbon does, but like silicon, it lacks carbon's abundance and its reactivity. Even more esoteric systems have been postulated, but generally they require such extraorinarily high energy states for stability, that they are unlikely to create stable compounds that will sustain a process of replication.

Even within organic chemisty as we know it, there is room for variation. Water is the essential solvent for life as we understand it, but ammonia has similar properties. But, again, abundance gets in the way. Oxygen is vastly more abundant than Nitrogen (which is another element that is not created in stellar fusion), and water is a much more stable molecule than ammonia. If an environment can be conceived in which nitrogen is superabundant to water, and oxygen can be dispensed with in biochemical processes, then some potential may exist for different biochemistry. But can such an evironment even be conceived? How would such an evironment naturally occur without being at such a high energy state as to prevent the formation of liquid ammonia?

Now I don't say that all these problems might not be overcome somewhere in a universe as big as ours. But I think the reality is that we will discover water and hydrocarbons everywhere in the universe--meaning that organic chemistry as we understand it will likely exist almost everywhere in the universe.


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21 Aug 2012, 1:50 pm

We are the most intelligent forms of life in our own personal universe :lol: I'm sure other life forms would beg to differ if they used human language.



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21 Aug 2012, 4:49 pm

wogaboo wrote:
visagrunt wrote:


Well, you can look at this a couple of ways. There is nothing, after all, to suggest that bacteria, plants and animals arose from a single primordial ancestor--there could have been multiple emergences, from which animals achieved dominance through the processes of natural selection. But even if the emergence of life is a singular event, one can take the perspective that life arose only once because life only had to arise once, and no event since that time has been of sufficient impact to displace life from the biosphere. This view suggests that once life has taken hold, it is near as dammit impossible to displace.



Scientists widely believe all life on earth has a single common ancestor, although some scientists question this consensus:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/ ... ee-of-life


And I don't see why the existence of life prevents life from starting again. Just as new species appear all the time in earth's history and co-exist, why can't entirely new trees of life repeatedly appear and co-exist.

If in fact life only appeared once on a planet as life friendly as Earth, it suggests life is something incredibly rare in the universe.

Life as we know it requires the formation of proteins within soap bubbles (yes, I'm oversimplifying quite a bit here). There can't possibly be any spontaneous appearance of life without this--which kinda makes me think life had a little nudge in getting started. At present we are all we know of what life exists in the universe.

But to be honest, I think it fascinating that there is the hypothetical possibility of non-carbon-based forming elsewhere. I wonder what that would be like.

Otherwise, I'm just afraid that we really are the most intelligent beings in the universe. If, indeed, this is true, the universe truly is a sad place.



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21 Aug 2012, 5:30 pm

Unfortunately, as pointed out by others here, we just don't have sufficient data to resolve issues of the kind presented by the Drake equation. The computer-guy acronym GIGO - garbage in- garbage out captures the impossibility of arriving at meaningful estimates of probability in this way.

There is another approach, however, that of extrapolating the observed trajectory of the "life" process. This strongly suggests the emergence of non-biological life on this planet with far greater "intelligence" than ours. All part of a evolutionary continuum.

This broader evolutionary model is outlined, very informally, in "The Goldilocks Effect: What Has Serendipity Ever Done For Us?" , a free download in e-book formats from the "Unusual Perspectives" website



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21 Aug 2012, 5:41 pm

Cognosium wrote:
Unfortunately, as pointed out by others here, we just don't have sufficient data to resolve issues of the kind presented by the Drake equation. The computer-guy acronym GIGO - garbage in- garbage out captures the impossibility of arriving at meaningful estimates of probability in this way.

There is another approach, however, that of extrapolating the observed trajectory of the "life" process. This strongly suggests the emergence of non-biological life on this planet with far greater "intelligence" than ours. All part of a evolutionary continuum.

This broader evolutionary model is outlined, very informally, in "The Goldilocks Effect: What Has Serendipity Ever Done For Us?" , a free download in e-book formats from the "Unusual Perspectives" website


You could Monte Carlo it.


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21 Aug 2012, 5:45 pm

AngelRho wrote:
wogaboo wrote:
visagrunt wrote:


Well, you can look at this a couple of ways. There is nothing, after all, to suggest that bacteria, plants and animals arose from a single primordial ancestor--there could have been multiple emergences, from which animals achieved dominance through the processes of natural selection. But even if the emergence of life is a singular event, one can take the perspective that life arose only once because life only had to arise once, and no event since that time has been of sufficient impact to displace life from the biosphere. This view suggests that once life has taken hold, it is near as dammit impossible to displace.



Scientists widely believe all life on earth has a single common ancestor, although some scientists question this consensus:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/ ... ee-of-life


And I don't see why the existence of life prevents life from starting again. Just as new species appear all the time in earth's history and co-exist, why can't entirely new trees of life repeatedly appear and co-exist.

If in fact life only appeared once on a planet as life friendly as Earth, it suggests life is something incredibly rare in the universe.

Life as we know it requires the formation of proteins within soap bubbles (yes, I'm oversimplifying quite a bit here). There can't possibly be any spontaneous appearance of life without this--which kinda makes me think life had a little nudge in getting started. At present we are all we know of what life exists in the universe.

But to be honest, I think it fascinating that there is the hypothetical possibility of non-carbon-based forming elsewhere. I wonder what that would be like.

Otherwise, I'm just afraid that we really are the most intelligent beings in the universe. If, indeed, this is true, the universe truly is a sad place.


It would be as unlikely that life on other worlds used the DNA-protein system as them using English.
The cell itself is in no way guaranteed.


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visagrunt
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21 Aug 2012, 6:47 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
It would be as unlikely that life on other worlds used the DNA-protein system as them using English.
The cell itself is in no way guaranteed.


If you are talking about G-C A-T neucleodtide DNA, then I agree with you. But if you are talking about carbon biochemistry generally, I don't.

Hydrogen, Oxygen, Carbon and Nitrogen will behave the same way in the same environments wherever they are found. It seems to me that carbon biochemistry is an inevitable feature of any environment in which water can be found in liquid state. A narrow band of environments, to be sure.


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21 Aug 2012, 8:06 pm

visagrunt wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
It would be as unlikely that life on other worlds used the DNA-protein system as them using English.
The cell itself is in no way guaranteed.


If you are talking about G-C A-T neucleodtide DNA, then I agree with you. But if you are talking about carbon biochemistry generally, I don't.

Hydrogen, Oxygen, Carbon and Nitrogen will behave the same way in the same environments wherever they are found. It seems to me that carbon biochemistry is an inevitable feature of any environment in which water can be found in liquid state. A narrow band of environments, to be sure.


Your argument earlier was very persuasive on the carbon thing although I still disagree.
What we are looking for are ratcheting systems that favor or at least allow complexity I don't see why they would have to be made out of carbon.


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21 Aug 2012, 8:08 pm

According to my religion, yes (except for the Prophets of God). However, that does not mean that human beings necessarily look the same throughout the universe.


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21 Aug 2012, 8:45 pm

nominalist wrote:
According to my religion, yes (except for the Prophets of God). However, that does not mean that human beings necessarily look the same throughout the universe.


I read your academic bona fides in your sig. Did you ever do any real science? Sociology is not a real science. It is a pseudoscience along with psychiatry, psychology, political (so-called) science. If it is not mathematical and not quantitative and does not make testable possibly falsifiable predictions, it is not science. Quantum theory is science. Relativity theory is science. Genetics is science. Neurophysiology is science. Chemistry is science.


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21 Aug 2012, 9:39 pm

ruveyn wrote:
nominalist wrote:
According to my religion, yes (except for the Prophets of God). However, that does not mean that human beings necessarily look the same throughout the universe.


I read your academic bona fides in your sig. Did you ever do any real science? Sociology is not a real science. It is a pseudoscience along with psychiatry, psychology, political (so-called) science. If it is not mathematical and not quantitative and does not make testable possibly falsifiable predictions, it is not science. Quantum theory is science. Relativity theory is science. Genetics is science. Neurophysiology is science. Chemistry is science.


ruveyn


Point taken but why are you questioning his science background when he is making a religious statement?


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nominalist
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21 Aug 2012, 11:30 pm

ruveyn wrote:
I read your academic bona fides in your sig. Did you ever do any real science? Sociology is not a real science. It is a pseudoscience along with psychiatry, psychology, political (so-called) science. If it is not mathematical and not quantitative and does not make testable possibly falsifiable predictions, it is not science. Quantum theory is science. Relativity theory is science. Genetics is science. Neurophysiology is science. Chemistry is science.


Two problems:

First, I was not speaking as a sociologist.

Second, your comments presume a positivist view of science. I am not a positivist.


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21 Aug 2012, 11:33 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
Point taken but why are you questioning his science background when he is making a religious statement?


Exactly. He made a category error.


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