02 Sep 2012, 10:09 pm
02 Sep 2012, 10:38 pm
02 Sep 2012, 10:48 pm
LKL wrote:
Takning your answer point by point, then:
Ashkenazi Jews are, on average, the smartest group of people on the planet as measred by the IQ scale. There are flaws with this scale, but it does have some correlation with reality.
A great deal of Jewish success in America does have to do with culture; love and respect of learning goes a long way in an economy where learning is prized.
Jews frequently fled from tyrrany on their way to the US as well; part of the reason that they did not have a culture that prized land and farming was that they were not allowed to own land in many of the areas of Europe that they came from.
This is incorrect. While environment can shift a person's IQ quite a bit in one direction or the other on the IQ scale, there is a certain degree of inborn talent, or lack thereof, in some people. For example, a person with Down's syndrome is unlikely to ever learn calculus regardless of the environment he grows up in; baring some sort of brain injury, a person with natural intelligence is unlikely to reach adulthood illiterate.
While it is true that neither works harder than the other - indeed, the farmer can be said to work harder than the lawyer, even given exactly equal hours spent at labor - it is not fair to dismiss the investment one person puts into learning a trade that another person does not. Such dismissal would be akin to saying that a cobbler who sets up shop on a street corner after a drunken decision the night before should be paid as much for his shoes as a cobbler who has been learning his trade for two decades. In addition, some talents are rarer than others; while the intrinsic 'worth' to society of a world-class football player probably isn't as much as the intrinsic worth of said farmer, world-class football players are considerably rarer than good farmers.
It's true that all work should be respected, and no one should have to work so much that they have no time for anyting else, but pretending that all work is equal is just unfair.
I am no fan of IQ tests at all but other than that it's nothing but the truth haidouk wrote:
This is nonsense. Jews are not smarter than most groups. What you're talking about has nothing to do with religion or ethnicity. Jews are smarter than Chinese? Jews are smarter than South Asians? Clearly, you have to know that these kinds of statements are absurd.
Ashkenazi Jews are, on average, the smartest group of people on the planet as measred by the IQ scale. There are flaws with this scale, but it does have some correlation with reality.
Quote:
What you're describing refers to cultural values coupled with a tradition of insular networking. Jews coming to the U.S. traditionally emigrated as urban settlers, with, with strong scholarly traditions, and cultural tradition of involvement in particular professional pursuits... combined with the strong sense of a historically oppressed people of "keeping to their own" and "circling the wagons" as it were. These factors combined to make Jews highly successful and highly represented in particular areas of life in America.
A great deal of Jewish success in America does have to do with culture; love and respect of learning goes a long way in an economy where learning is prized.
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As a contrast, take the huge number of other European immigrants came with an interest of escaping tyranny, owning their own land, not being under anyone's thumb etc., as they had been in their home countries, and they settled westward in specifically agrarian, backwoods and non urban contexts. These people were not "stupid"--but their values and life choices would not lead them to likely become professors, scientists, financial-sector workers, etc.
Jews frequently fled from tyrrany on their way to the US as well; part of the reason that they did not have a culture that prized land and farming was that they were not allowed to own land in many of the areas of Europe that they came from.
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There are no "smart peoples" vs "stupid peoples". This is a total myth. There are just "people". Everyone has inestimable intrinsic value. These differences you speak of are products of the environment into which the person is born.
This is incorrect. While environment can shift a person's IQ quite a bit in one direction or the other on the IQ scale, there is a certain degree of inborn talent, or lack thereof, in some people. For example, a person with Down's syndrome is unlikely to ever learn calculus regardless of the environment he grows up in; baring some sort of brain injury, a person with natural intelligence is unlikely to reach adulthood illiterate.
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This is a good example of why wild income stratification is unethical, and unjustifiable. The kid who is born into a family of lawyers who becomes a lawyer, is no greater intrinsic worth or validity than the kid born into a family of farmers who becomes a farmer. One does not "work harder" than the other. The differences are not qualitative, or matters of personal worth or ranking. Everyone deserves respect, dignity, humane living conditions, and a decent standard of living.
While it is true that neither works harder than the other - indeed, the farmer can be said to work harder than the lawyer, even given exactly equal hours spent at labor - it is not fair to dismiss the investment one person puts into learning a trade that another person does not. Such dismissal would be akin to saying that a cobbler who sets up shop on a street corner after a drunken decision the night before should be paid as much for his shoes as a cobbler who has been learning his trade for two decades. In addition, some talents are rarer than others; while the intrinsic 'worth' to society of a world-class football player probably isn't as much as the intrinsic worth of said farmer, world-class football players are considerably rarer than good farmers.
It's true that all work should be respected, and no one should have to work so much that they have no time for anyting else, but pretending that all work is equal is just unfair.
.
02 Sep 2012, 11:40 pm
02 Sep 2012, 11:58 pm
^Ha! It never ceases to amaze me how much glee insecure people take from ridiculously trying to patronizing others whose ideas they are unprepared to have to think about, throwing up red herrings, straw men... or donuts if that will distract attention from what has been said. "Who do you imagine you're talking to? Who are you trying to impress?" Was this not the entire point of my previous post? Amazing to see that it has gone above heads. Actually I give you more credit than that--I can't in good conscience play these same patronizing games. They don't do that much for me personally. Thanks for the chuckle on the topic of human psychology though, I needed that 
edit: Maybe I did not make it sufficiently clear that, in the perspective I'm presenting, I am specifically rejecting IQ test scores as an objective measure of holistic or net intelligences. They are a particular metric with a particular purpose. This purpose is quite narrow and limited, and they measure very particular thing that is not essentially relevant to the points I"m making here. This is neither how the thread was orignially framed, nor how I addressed it--or wished to switch to addressing it at any later point. I was remiss in not making this less ambiguous.
Last edited by haidouk on 03 Sep 2012, 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
03 Sep 2012, 12:01 am
AceOfSpades wrote:
I am no fan of IQ tests at all but other than that it's nothing but the truth .
.Out of curiosity, who exactly is the picture in your icon?
03 Sep 2012, 12:11 am
03 Sep 2012, 12:16 am
haidouk wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
I am no fan of IQ tests at all but other than that it's nothing but the truth .
.Out of curiosity, who exactly is the picture in your icon?
03 Sep 2012, 12:25 am
AceOfSpades wrote:
haidouk wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
I am no fan of IQ tests at all but other than that it's nothing but the truth .
.Out of curiosity, who exactly is the picture in your icon?
Oh, OK. Thanks
03 Sep 2012, 12:32 am
haidouk wrote:
^Ha! It never ceases to amaze me how much glee insecure people take from ridiculously trying to patronizing others whose ideas they are unprepared to have to think about, throwing up red herrings, straw men... or donuts if that will distract attention from what has been said. "Who do you imagine you're talking to? Who are you trying to impress?" Was this not the entire point of my previous post? Amazing to see that it has gone above heads. Actually I give you more credit than that--I can't in good conscience play these same patronizing games. They don't do that much for me personally. Thanks for the chuckle on the topic of human psychology though, I needed that
What? Maybe you are truly that much smarter than me, because this makes no sense to me in the context of this discussion. Also, I take back what I previously said about you not being insulting.
Quote:
edit: Maybe I did not make it sufficiently clear that, in the perspective I'm presenting, I am specifically rejecting IQ test scores as an objective measure of holistic or net intelligences.
No, I think you made that clear; I agree that it has nothing to do with 'holistic' intelligence, or with multiple intelligences, but that is not the focus of this discussion and the IQ does have utility in measuring learning ability and abstract thinking. It is also the source of Ruveyn's original point.
Quote:
They are a particular metric with a particular purpose. This purpose is quite narrow and limited, and they measure very particular thing that is not essentially relevant to the points I"m making here. This is neither how the thread was orignially framed, nor how I addressed it--or wished to switch to addressing it at any later point. I was remiss in not making this less ambiguous.
So, wait... you came into an extant thread, tried to switch it to something else, and then started insulting people (Aspies on an Asperger's forum, no less!) because we perseverated on the original point?
03 Sep 2012, 12:54 am
03 Sep 2012, 1:09 pm
03 Sep 2012, 1:27 pm
03 Sep 2012, 1:51 pm
Kraichgauer
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03 Sep 2012, 2:44 pm
03 Sep 2012, 2:57 pm
