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Hopper
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03 Sep 2012, 4:19 pm

A penis with a foreskin is not malformed.



Oodain
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03 Sep 2012, 4:28 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Hopper wrote:
Oh, grow up. Are you really so stupid as to not understand the difference between something that can grow back and something that can't? Are you really so stupid as to think any boy under the age of, say, 13 (assuming he's an early starter) is at risk of an STD or penile cancer? That basic personal hygiene - which serves most uncircumcised men just fine - is some impossible task? Good grief.

I am not arguing for intactness. If a grown adult wants to mutilate their genitals, that is their choice. I am arguing for the right of bodily integrity be granted to children.


I wouldn't say that. My parents of blessed memory made it less likely that I would ever suffer from cancer of the glans penis. Thanks Dad. Thanks Mom. It also made a better Jew of me.

By the way. What about parents who submit their minor children to surgery to make a hare lip go away? A hare lip is just a "natural" as a normal lip (just statistically more rare). It is a consequence of nature. Yet parents routinely take their children who have hare lip to a surgen and have the surgeon make it look like a normal lip. Hare Lip is natural. So is "normal" lip. And what about parents who have children who are "blue babies" cut open and their hearts altered. A child has a right to its naturally malformed heart.

ruveyn


what you dont seem to grasp is that this doesnt really have to have anything to do with "being natural" (one could argue humans are natural and we learned our skills naturally)

it has to do with choice and the lack thereof in circumstances where the benefits are far from clear, nor are the drawbacks.


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ruveyn
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03 Sep 2012, 5:18 pm

Hopper wrote:
A penis with a foreskin is not malformed.


It is just more likely to suffer cancer of the glans penis and more likely to be subject to STD.

And there is the Curse of Smegma.

ruveyn



thomas81
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03 Sep 2012, 5:23 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Hopper wrote:
A penis with a foreskin is not malformed.


It is just more likely to suffer cancer of the glans penis and more likely to be subject to STD.

And there is the Curse of Smegma.

ruveyn


They invented these things for a reason. For everything else, there is power showers and monogamous relationships.


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Maybe its just me but I love giving my chap a good blast down.



Oodain
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03 Sep 2012, 5:28 pm

do you have some modern sources and their peer reviews?

what is the statistical context?

lets get some numbers on the line here so we can see excactly what you are getting for sacrificing the choice of your children in the context of their own body,
thing is most people that have it done might be perfectly happy about it, but there are people that arent, it can be a serious life long trauma for some of these people.
so in essence by allowing parents to make such a choice without any consideration for the child means that there will be people suffering some very real trauma to satisfy what is largely an aesthetic and cultural choice, if you are talking about the benefits then surely they would be equally great if done later in life, where choice can be had and trauma prevented or are you going to argue that cancer is a real risk below 16 ?


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thomas81
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03 Sep 2012, 5:30 pm

Is smegma around your urethra is the height of your worries you lead a very idyllic existance, thats all i can say.



Shatbat
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03 Sep 2012, 5:45 pm

You're doing several flawed analogies there. A foreskin is not like hair or fingernails, because the last two grow back. The procedure isn't fail-safe; it has the potential to go wrong, and when it does...

Also, hare lips, and especially heart defects, are more, way more, life threatening than some foreskin; and the social stigma associated with the first one should not be overlooked. To be fair, I've heard there are women in the US who don't like circumcised penis, and that *could* be a valid reason for an adult man who cares about such matters, but then again, that's something a baby shouldn't worry about.

You mention smegma, cancer, and STD's as your reasons for circumcision. The first one is solved with basic hygiene, and for the later, proper use of condoms is much more effective at STD prevention than circumcision. On HIV: circumcision's effectiveness is of about 61%; it would be roughly like letting my fate be decided by the flip of a coin. It's virtually impossible for a condom to allow HIV transmission as long as it is properly used. I could not find the source on the cancer claim.

Anyway, sex and cancer are not part of children's worries. Let them grow up and then decide what do they want to do with their bodies.

I can also make a similarly flawed analogy. What if we cut all women's breasts off? Breast cancer would cease to exist, and maybe men would be less driven to have sex with them, which would lower the chances of catching an STD. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? (to be fair, masectomy is sometimes done preventively in women whose genotipe make them very likely to develop breast cancer. That's not the case with most women though, and those who go under that procedure do it under their own free will)


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Hopper
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03 Sep 2012, 5:57 pm

These are adult health concerns, to be left to adults who can make their choice. As others have noted, good personal hygiene and condoms are a much less extreme version, but if mutiliating your own penis is your preferred option, go for it. It is your choice.

I am happy with my choice. It was - and will remain - my choice to make. Had my parents made it for me, I might be happy with it. I might feel bad, but also that they're my parents, and so wouldn't do anything to hurt me, and start to feel conflicted. I might hate it, and come to resent them for it.

You seem ok with your own circumcision - many aren't. They wish they had had the choice to make, and not had it forced upon them. It is unnecessary surgery, and it violates a person's right to bodily integrity and choice.

I'll take the joys and benefits of a more sensitive penis over the 'chore' of hygiene, condoms I'd use anyway, and a slight increased risk of a rare cancer.



ruveyn
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03 Sep 2012, 6:02 pm

Shatbat wrote:

I can also make a similarly flawed analogy. What if we cut all women's breasts off? Breast cancer would cease to exist, and maybe men would be less driven to have sex with them, which would lower the chances of catching an STD. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? (to be fair, masectomy is sometimes done preventively in women whose genotipe make them very likely to develop breast cancer. That's not the case with most women though, and those who go under that procedure do it under their own free will)


Have a look at this
http://www.statesman.com/news/nation/st ... 90313.html

ruveyn



Tim_Tex
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03 Sep 2012, 6:32 pm

thomas81 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Hopper wrote:
A penis with a foreskin is not malformed.


It is just more likely to suffer cancer of the glans penis and more likely to be subject to STD.

And there is the Curse of Smegma.

ruveyn


They invented these things for a reason. For everything else, there is power showers and monogamous relationships.


Image

Maybe its just me but I love giving my chap a good blast down.


What's a power shower?


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Shatbat
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03 Sep 2012, 6:57 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Shatbat wrote:

I can also make a similarly flawed analogy. What if we cut all women's breasts off? Breast cancer would cease to exist, and maybe men would be less driven to have sex with them, which would lower the chances of catching an STD. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? (to be fair, masectomy is sometimes done preventively in women whose genotipe make them very likely to develop breast cancer. That's not the case with most women though, and those who go under that procedure do it under their own free will)


Have a look at this
http://www.statesman.com/news/nation/st ... 90313.html

ruveyn


That's why I wrote the part between parenthesis :D. I know about such cases. I must also thank you for providing statistics on it. The chances of a genetically predisposed woman to develop breast cancer during her lifetime are ~56% - 84% though. Enormous odds, especially when it's about cancer. I don't think the rates of... huh... foreskin cancer are anywhere near though, as I said, there were no statistics on the article you linked, or in it's sources.


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03 Sep 2012, 7:08 pm

I'll just call it like I see it; ruveyn is a troll. He misses the point so blatantly that it has to be deliberate. Do the same thing to him and he'll call YOU on it. He just looks for any sort of excuse to condescendingly lecture people.



ruveyn
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03 Sep 2012, 7:11 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
I'll just call it like I see it; ruveyn is a troll. He misses the point so blatantly that it has to be deliberate. Do the same thing to him and he'll call YOU on it.


I am NOT a troll. I am an Aspie and I am genetically obtuse. I almost always miss the point because I am literal minded. I not only don't take hints, I do not even see them. And I do not ever, ever read between the lines. I take everyone exactly at their word, literally verbatim. Missing the point blatantly is what my life is all about.

ruveyn



AceOfSpades
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03 Sep 2012, 7:18 pm

ruveyn wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
I'll just call it like I see it; ruveyn is a troll. He misses the point so blatantly that it has to be deliberate. Do the same thing to him and he'll call YOU on it.


I am NOT a troll. I am an Aspie and I am genetically obtuse. I almost always miss the point because I am literal minded. I not only don't take hints, I do not even see them. And I do not ever, ever read between the lines. I take everyone exactly at their word, literally verbatim. Missing the point blatantly is what my life is all about.

ruveyn
Yeah ok buddy, that's why you repeat the same assertions and lectures over and over again instead of asking people to clarify.



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03 Sep 2012, 7:26 pm

AceOfSpades, that's out of order. It's a personal attack to accuse someone of trolling.
If you have any genuine concerns beyond being annoyed by posting styles or other opinions you should report them to a moderator.


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AceOfSpades
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03 Sep 2012, 7:56 pm

Never mind then. I could build a little case for it but I don't think I'll even bother since it's a grey area sort of thing.