Was Ayn Rand a psychopath?

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JakobVirgil
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20 Sep 2012, 4:17 pm

GGPViper wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

Hare Psychopathy Checklist

2 glib and superficial charm
2 grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self
2 need for stimulation
? pathological lying
2 cunning and manipulativeness
2 lack of remorse or guilt
2 shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
2 callousness and lack of empathy
? parasitic lifestyle
1 poor behavioral controls
2 sexual promiscuity
? early behavior problems
1 lack of realistic long-term goals
1 impulsivity
1 irresponsibility
2 failure to accept responsibility for own actions
1 many short-term marital relationships
? juvenile delinquency
0 revocation of conditional release
? criminal versatility
SCORE = 24
When properly completed by a qualified professional [edit anyone on the internet], the PCL-R provides a total score that indicates how closely the test subject matches the "perfect" score that a classic or prototypical psychopath would rate. Each of the twenty items is given a score of 0, 1, or 2 based on how well it applies to the subject being tested. A prototypical psychopath would receive a maximum score of 40, while someone with absolutely no psychopathic traits or tendencies would receive a score of zero. A score of 30 or above qualifies a person for a diagnosis of psychopathy. People with no criminal backgrounds normally score around 5. Many non-psychopathic criminal offenders score around 22.

Answer no Ayn Rand is not apparently a Sociopath just a horrible person.
Unless some of those ?s should be 2s.
Does anyone no if she was a Juvenile Delinquent or a Pathological liar ?

Considering I am currently at (total) war with JakobVirgil in another thread it would be against my self interest to support him, but this post makes the point. Psychopathy might be some loose term to most people, but it has been the subject of substantial research (including top tier scientific journals like Science, Nature and PNAS) for decades. Robert Hare's PCL-R remains the predominant scale for determining psychopathy, although David Cooke has some (in my opinion relevant) objections against the PCL-R. However, since I lack the capability of providing a realistic alternative, I will stick to the current establishment...

We are fighting but you know I still love you right?
Under Cooke and Michie, Ayn would be a sociopath because they remove the criminality component which is were Ms. Rosenbaum ducked the diagnosis.

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Giftorcurse
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20 Sep 2012, 4:55 pm

I'm a cynic. To me, everyone is a sociopath.

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GGPViper
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20 Sep 2012, 5:04 pm

I just like fighting....

Regardless, I doubt that Ayn Rand came anywhere close to being a psychopath. The impulsive aspect (type 2) doesn't make authorship easy....

Stupid, on the other hand...

JakobVirgil wrote:

We are fighting but you know I still love you right?

It is better to be feared than loved... I mean, if Old Nick said it, then it must be true...

ruveyn
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20 Sep 2012, 7:49 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Maybe there is nothing quite a mad as a martyr, what's wrong with altruism? What's wrong with caring about the least among us? In the end, if not in the eyes of God, then in the eyes of your fellow man, you have a higher standing than the selfish and self centered.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

We are born with an ego. If we did not care about ourselves we would not survive physically. If we did not care for ourselves our dependent children would not survive physically. Having working ego is a condition of survival.
Having an oversize ego, however, can be a problem.

R. Hillel said it best:

If I am not for myself, who is for me?
If I am only for myself, what am I?
If not now, then when?

Perke Avot I-15

ruveyn

MagicToenail
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20 Sep 2012, 7:57 pm

I don't have the attention span for philosophy anymore, but I always thought Libertarians that followed John Stuart Mill argued that enlightened self interest was always best, and those that followed Ayn Rand left out the enlightened bit. My sympathies are with those in the Mill tradition.

JakobVirgil
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20 Sep 2012, 8:00 pm

GGPViper wrote:

I just like fighting....

Regardless, I doubt that Ayn Rand came anywhere close to being a psychopath. The impulsive aspect (type 2) doesn't make authorship easy....
....

By authorship you mean because she was a writer?
I think successful psycopaths like really good looking high functioning aspies are harder to diagnose.

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marshall
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21 Sep 2012, 12:26 am

ruveyn wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

If Rand really believed her own BS about selfishness as a virtue, and that caring for the least among us was tantamount to a sin, then she was certainly in the running as a psychopath.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Not at all. There is nothing psychopathic about rational selfishness. I have been practicing it for over half my life and I am as sane and as in touch with reality as an pinko stinko commie loving liberal altruist.

Christians who die for Christ are probably more crazy than those who prefer to stay a live.

There is nothing quite as mad as a martyr.

ruveyn

Reason alone cannot inform a person on ultimate values. Reason is descriptive, not normative. People who value altruism and fairness are no less rational than those who value "rational selfishness". Ayn Rand's opinion that self-sacrifice is foolish and unreasonable is silly because altruists and selfish individualists aim for different ends. Both are acting reasonably to the degree that they fulfill their own ultimate values. Reason itself can only inform one on the means to obtain an end. Ends themselves are outside the realm of objective description. The person that labels a martyr a fool only does so because he/she lacks insight onto the motives of people who do not value the same ends that he/she values. The claims of objectivists are idiotic and consist of purely circular reasoning and/or plain old assertions. Randomly adding qualifiers like "rational" and "objective" is just manipulative linguistic sophistry. It's the exact same trick that religions use to lay claim to foundational normative truths. If objectivism is so opposed to religion then why does it make claims the exact same way that religions do? Ayn Rand was an idiot. Objectivism is objective in the way Scientology is scientific.

simon_says
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21 Sep 2012, 12:30 am

She was a former Russian collectivst looking for a new collective. And she lived accordingly, surrounded by a little cult.

The idea that the achievers would run off to smoke and hang out on a commune was a little silly.

GGPViper
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21 Sep 2012, 2:52 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

GGPViper wrote:

I just like fighting....

Regardless, I doubt that Ayn Rand came anywhere close to being a psychopath. The impulsive aspect (type 2) doesn't make authorship easy....
....

By authorship you mean because she was a writer?
I think successful psycopaths like really good looking high functioning aspies are harder to diagnose.

My scepticism towards labelling Rand (or a lot of people, for that matter) as a a psychopath stems from the fact that the PCL-R consists of two dimensions: A callous/unemotional trait and an impulsive trait. The impulsive trait makes it unlikely that a person would be able to sit down and actually write a book on moral philosophy and epistemology.

I have no knowledge of the first trait considering Ayn Rand, but I assume that actual assessments may be influenced by the political views of the observer..

ruveyn
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21 Sep 2012, 2:53 pm

simon_says wrote:

She became a den mother to a set of strange folks and losers.

ruveyn

techstepgenr8tion
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21 Sep 2012, 5:09 pm

I think with Ayn Rand it was the very specifics of her upbringing and experiences - ie. the things that she saw and what (as well as who) she was informed by were somewhat eccentric.

What she gives though is something like the north pole of libertarianism. Her views were *pretty close* to an absolute which means that people can - in engaging her ethics - see both the upsides and pitfalls of such beliefs but they can see it somewhat accurately because she was no BS about it.

thomas81
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21 Sep 2012, 5:29 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

How does having a compassion for ones fellow man disqualify us from having care for ourselves?

That dichotomy doesnt register with me.

Personally, I am altruist BECAUSE of my self serving nature. I want to have the spoils that can come about from equality.

YippySkippy
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21 Sep 2012, 9:12 pm

I know a woman who claims to be a fan of Ayn Rand and has a child with cerebral palsy. Hard to wrap my head around that paradox.
I guess she's just a stuck-up idiot (also supported by brief conversations with her). :wink:

thomas81
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22 Sep 2012, 9:40 am

YippySkippy wrote:

I know a woman who claims to be a fan of Ayn Rand and has a child with cerebral palsy. Hard to wrap my head around that paradox.

I guess she's just a stuck-up idiot (also supported by brief conversations with her). :wink:

Got to feel sorry for that kid.

puddingmouse
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22 Sep 2012, 10:20 am

I score like 2 or 3 on that Hare checklist, most people seem slightly psychopathic to me.

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GGPViper
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22 Sep 2012, 6:17 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

I score like 2 or 3 on that Hare checklist, most people seem slightly psychopathic to me.

Aspergers = Mild autism

NT = Mild psychopathy

For the lulz, of course, but since both autism and psychopathy are considered spectrums....

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