Israel and its abuse of the anti semitism card

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Right, but thats not the point.

Its like Japanese Whalers who kill whales and say "but the meat is delicious"

In this case, a legitimate indigenous population (ie the Palestinians) were forcibly removed from their ancestral lands and forced to the unarable extremities of the country to stagnate in poverty under seige. This is a rotten precedence under which to start a 'democratric' country. The ends do not justify the means.

Thats overlooking the fact that Israel is far from a democracy. 'Mechanisms to enforce minority rights' do not extend to arabs. Its an awful apartheid state where arabs have no internationally recognised national boundaries or say how the borders are run. All the utilities, water pipes, airports and seaports are under Israeli supervision and control. Palestinians who leave the country forfeit the right to return. Theres absolutely no difference between Israel and Apartheid south Africa other than the fact that the Apartheid government had no theocratic rationale or Racism card to hide behind whenever it was criticised.

Moreover the idea that Israel is protecting Jews or Jewish interests is a fallacy. As I said in a previous thread, they are safer in the west.

First of all, you're flat wrong about freedom of press in Israel. The IMC has the full right to censor anything it deems threatening to "the national security of Israel". And within the last 10 years it has increasingly been used by the Israeli government to suppress dissent as well as deny foreign media that criticizes Israeli policies from being available in the country(including Palestinian territories).

Do show me some evidence that the Israeli constitution guarantees freedom of press(not to mention freedom of speech). Also, Israel is NOT secular! It is a religious state where Judaism and Jewish principles are enshrined and protected in the constitution. Muslims, Christians, and other religious groups do not have their freedom to practice protected the way they do here in the United States.

I rather think that it is entirely the point. I have never suggested that Israeli administration over the West Bank is proper or should continue. All that I have said is that accusations of racism and illegtimacy levelled at the the Israeli government are empty. She is the only democracy in the region. The only Arab governments that even come close to her level are Lebanon and the Palestinian Authority--and they are both a long way behind her.

So when it comes to right of the Palestinian people to self-determination, do we simply wash our hands of the question of capacity to form a stable, democratic government in Palestine? Do we leave them to the predation of whichever warlord emerges victorious in an internal power struggle? Or do we explicitly support Fatah as the best option for the emergence of a viable Palestinian state?

I strongly support the idea that Israel must abandon its attempts to assert control over the West Bank. I strongly support Fatah's (largely successful) attempts to identify quantum for a land swap. I will even go so far as to support the notion of the 1967 borders as a starting point for a two state solution. But none of Israel's errors illegitimate her government--only her government's ongoing occupation of the West Bank.

Now, you might well argue that unilateral withdrawal is the only legitimate course of action for Israel. But given the precedent of Israel's withdrawal from Gaza, should we be so certain that such an action is in the best interests of anyone other than Iran and the leadership of Hamas?



The most certain extend to Arabs. You are failing to distinguish between Arab citizens of Israel--who have full political and civil rights within her borders, and those Arabs who have refused (albeit for strongly held, legitimate reasons) to accept Israeli citizenship or permanent residence.

They have chosen to remain stateless--and I respect their choice in so doing. But their disenfranchisement is a direct result of their choice to be Palestinian rather than Arab-Israelis. And their disenfranchisement will end, as soon as a Fatah-led government has a mandate from her people to go back to the bargaining table and make a land deal. Hamas won't go to the table, and Fatah is effectively prevented from going to the table based on the electoral issues within Palestine.

You are also failing to distinguish between Israel proper and the disputed territories. Israel makes unilateral decisions in both territories--because agreement with the Palestinian Authority is all but impossible with Hamas. But Arab Israelis living in Israel proper have the same rights of citizenship as every other citizen.



No, the Israeli government is protecting Israeli citizens--of all faiths and races. Predominantly Jewish, yes. And open to all Jews who wish to avail themselves of it, to be sure. But at the end of the day, Israeli responsibilty begins and ends with her citizens.

I'm not selectively referring to recent events but from 1946 up until today.

If we go by the dictionary definition of genocide, then what is happening in the area is genocide orchestrated by Israel.
[img][800:882]http://www.worldliteraturetoday.com/sites/default/files/2012/May/palestinian-loss-of-land-1946-2010.jpg[/img]
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I'm beginning to think that it may be necessary for Russia to retarget Israel with (stealth)ICBMs(which of course can penetrate the MDS) or perhaps long range nuclear tipped hypersonic cruise missiles in order to keep Israeli power in the region in check and under the gun.

If you believe that any military force in that area is a good thing you are insane.

If Russia becomes involved, so does the USA and every other country hoodwinked into their dirty alliance.

I truly believe this sabre rattling happening between Israel and Iran at the moment is the biggest threat since the Cuban missile crisis.

My dictionary defines genocide as follows:



You claim that the erosion of Palestinian controlled territory is genocidal. I am not sure that your case is made out.

I do not dispute that Israeli encroachment into disputed territories is wrong. But using terms like apartheid and genocide makes you seem shrill and irrational.

I'm aware of this. And that's why I believe that the US will whip Israel into shape if that country's actions are going to lead to a nuclear war. That is exactly what happened after the Yom Kippur war and the ensuing Arab oil embargo! Trickydick Nixon demanded that Israel withdraw from the Sinai peninsula or he would end foreign aid to Israel. The Israeli's depend on US aid to fund their military and so they obliged and did as Nixon instructed.

In Austria, being critical or saying anything negative against Jews is illegalized and called re-engagement...
Israelites treat Germans and Austrians as if we would heavily be in their debt and would have to act overpolite since everything we say they could use against us.
In these countries there is some kind of self-justice of the whole nation, jews are a taboo.
I don't understand this. None of these persons was ever treated bad by me or 99,999% of my living fellow countrymen. At first because those jews who complain now didn't even live back then because it was 70 years ago, and second, because even only my grandparents have been children back then who hid in the cellars when the Russians came, and even if they would have fought, how does this relate to me? I was born and raised in a most sophisticated and liberal country! And why do people complain at all who were not even the relatives of those persons who were treated awfully or killed? Only because they have also been jewish?
How can they put such a guilt on every newborn child born in those countries? A guilt that doesn't even exist, still they again and again make us believe!
While they themselves are behaving the most racist, ideally only marrying other jews, being strictly religious, feeling a liability for the honour of all of the other jews who live and ever lived but not for the honour of anybody else and considering themselves the chosen people who can just say "this land is mine, god gave this land to me" to justify starting a war to drive people who peacefully wanted to live there away. That those peaceful persons are now just the same insane is a totally different story!
I even saw that the jewish were complaining to the olympic comitee in the UK this year, that the British people didn't express their sadness about the assassinations through arabs of the jewish athletes 40 years ago good enough...
Such narcisstic drama queens, ever living in the past...

I strongly disagree, because what is happening to the Palestinians in the occupied territories at the moment is absolutely analogous to what happened in apartheid era south africa.

Also, it IS genocide. The Palestinian nation is being pushed to the brink of non existance, this is irrefutable. It only seems shrill and irrational to someone viewing the immediate history of the region through tinted goggles. The logic being offered here almost seems to be the Jews were once victims of genocide, therefore they are incapable of it themselves.

The difference with South Africa is this time it is being done with the sanction of the west and the willful ignorance of everyone else bar the few protesters thats are willing to stand up. Its just a shame that Ahmoudinejhad the religious nutcase that he is, is one of the few statesmen willing to say anything.

Its unlikely to be a nuclear war, since Iran doesnt have nuclear capability. Israel is hardly likely to nuke Russia. If Russia gets involved I see it as potentially unravelling into a long bloody drawn out war of conventional skirmishes starting in the region and eventually spilling out into Europe and central asia. WW3, basically.

Israel has a bigger army and airforce, but Iran has the bigger navy. What'll happen is if Israel makes a first strike with its planes, Iran will retalliate by anchoring their subs and battleships in the red sea and start hitting Israeli cities with conventional missiles. If Russia intervenes, to help Iran, the USA will be obliged to help it's ally Israel. Of course the UK will take part too because it is America's biatch.

I'm not talking about a nuclear war between Israel and Iran. I'm talking about Russia threatening Israel with its nuclear arsenal by moving its SRNF and IRNF into the middle east within striking distance! This is what happened in the early 70s when the USSR under Brezhnev deployed nuclear armed SCUD missiles in Egypt aimed at Israel. After Israel withdrew from the Sinai, Brezhnev then withdrew those nuclear missiles and transported them back to the USSR.

It's called original sin. It was a biblical concoction but is used to this day for secular, political purposes by minority groups living in western countries(as well as historically marginalized groups). It's very unfortunate how many historically persecuted groups who have achieved political and social equality and now wield power have developed a sense of entitlement. That seems to be the attitude among the Israeli's. Somebody once said to me that many white Americans identify with Israel because they see themselves in the same situation:
God gave us this land(of course "we" took it from people already living here by decimating them)and these brown people are trying to take if from us. I honestly think that the Boers had the same idea in South Africa: They believed that God gave them that land and so they had the right to banish and decimate the people who were already living there and yet these black "barbarians" from the North were trying to steal it from them. Funny enough, for the Boers, it backfired with devastating consequences for them. The Israeli's should really learn from that and start desegregating their country and instituting minority rights at once.

Also, WHY are there Jewish settlers in Gaza still? I think the solution to illegal Jewish settlements is that the IDF should publicly refuse to protect them and leave them to fend for themselves in response when they are attacked by "terrorists". That's the only way to teach them.

It cannot be absolutely analagous, because South Africa stripped all non-white citizens of all political rights, and the vast majority of civil rights. One the other hand, Israel has a substantial Arab population who participate within public and commercial life of the country at all levels. Underrepresented, to be sure, but represented nonetheless. You are projecting the experience of Palestinians who have no desire to be a part of public life in Israel with black and coloured South Africans who did want to be part of the public life in theirs.

Israel's actions in the occupied territories must be distinguished from Israeli policy within Israel proper. Israel has endorsed a two state solution. Israel and Fatah were very close together on a land swap. Fatah was well positioned to created institutions for sustainable democratic government. It is not Israel's responsibility to unilaterally withdraw--it is Israel's responsibility to negotiate and attempt to reach agreement. The Palestinians need to come back to the table in order to provide for their own citizens.



It is entirely refutable. Genocide is the extermination of a people--the Palestinian people are being repressed (not least by their own governments), they are economically isolated. But they are not being exterminated.

What is the population of Gaza and the West Bank this year? Somewhat over 4 million--and growing. The Arab population within Israel represents about 20% of her population, a figure that has remained stable over time. Is the culture at risk? Their language, their religion are flourishing. They control their own education system.

You are misusing the word as an exercise in hyperbole. If you want to have a rational discussion about how to bring about peace between Israel and Palestine, that is precisely the wrong approach to take.

Ask him about the treatment of Palestinians in their refugee camps in Arab countries like Egypt and Jordan? The large numbers of Palestinians in refugee camps aren't exactly liked or welcomed as fellow Arab brethren either. They're left in there, generation after generation, harbouring resentment towards Israel.

In fact, for every single other ethnic group in the world, they wouldn't be considered refugees after a single generation, yet an exception is made for Palestinians and Palestinians alone.

These Arab countries despise the Palestinians yet use them as an excuse, a pretext, to attack Israel.

The amount of condemnation of Israel is well out of proportion to the level of deaths that Israel is responsible for compared to dictatorships with far higher death tolls (like China), yet the UN and the like are strangely silent on these places by comparison.

IDK about "agnostic zionists" who are goyim but those right wing christians(like JB of WP ) are pretty much useful idiots who are being financially exploited......And quite frankly I don't feel the least bit sorry for them. And neither should you. After all:

~A fool and his money are soon parted.